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View Full Version : 3 stage VTEC, regular VTEC, or VTEC-E?


drumminforev
10-16-2005, 02:50 AM
So im going to buy a d15b JDM, i read around that this is the 3 stage vtec. Correct? How can i determine if the engine has 3 stage vtec or just regular high output vtec. Very important so i dont purchase an engine that is not what i want.

Appreciate the help.

ShinsenTuner
10-16-2005, 02:58 AM
vtec is vtec...it doesn't do much except allow the valves to open up more and allow more air and gas through... it's all the same really :what:

drumminforev
10-16-2005, 03:05 AM
99gsrhatch, obviously you dont know a damn thing about vtec. 3 stage vtec, vtec e, and vtec are ENTIRELY different. I dont feel like explaining but go on google and look up 3-stage vtec.

back to my original question, how can i accurately tell which it is.

io_303
10-16-2005, 03:06 AM
vtec is vtec, he isnt wrong, it all does the same thing, in the same way. do some more research.

Eran
10-16-2005, 03:07 AM
Three-Stage VTEC

Examine the SOHC VTEC and SOHC VTEC-E implementations. The clever Honda engineers saw that it is a logical step to merge the two implementations into one. This is in essence the 3-stage VTEC implementation. 3-stage VTEC is implemented on the D15B 1.5l SOHC engine in which the VTEC-E mechanism is combined with the power VTEC mechanism.

Many of us probably has laughed at the poor ignorant layman who said "I want power AND economy from my Honda". We know of course that power and economy are mutually exclusive implementations. Honda decided not to abide by this rule. Now, with 3-stage VTEC, we get BOTH power and economy !.

The diagram below illustrates the 3-stage VTEC implementation. The intake rocker arms have two VTEC pin actuation mechanisms. The VTEC-E actuation assembly is located above the camshaft while the VTEC (power) actuation assembly is the standard wild-cam lobe and rocker assembly.

http://asia.vtec.net/spfeature/vtecimpl/img9.jpg

Below 2500rpm and with gentle accelerator pressure, neither pin gets actuated. The engine operates in 12V mode with very good fuel combustion efficiency. When the right foot gets more urgent and/or above 2500rpm, the upper pin gets actuated. This is the VTEC-E mechanism at work and the engine effectively enters into the '2nd stage'. Now D15B 3-stage works in 16V mode (both intake valves works from the same mild cam-lobe).

Stage 2 operates from around 2500rpm to 6000rpm. When the rpm exceeds 6000rpm, the VTEC mechanism activates the wild cam-lobe pushing the engine into the '3rd stage', the power stage. Now the engine gives us the full benefit of its 130ps potential !

The 3-stage VTEC D15B engine is used on the current EK-series JDM Civic/Civic Ferio VTi/Vi together with Honda's new Multimatic CVT transmission. Stage-1 12V or "lean-burn" operation mode is indicated to the driver by an LED on the dashboard. The 2500rpm cutover from lean-burn to normal 16V operation in fact varies according to load and driver requirements. With gentle driving, lean-burn can operate up to 3000rpm or higher. Stage-3 may not always be activated. The Multimatic transmission has a selector for Economy, Drive, and Sports mode. In Economy mode for eg, the ECU operates with a max rpm of around 4800rpm even at Wide-Open-Throttle positions.

The essence of 3-stage VTEC is power AND economy implemented on a 1.5l SOHC PGM-Fi engine. Many people mistakes 3-stage VTEC as a "superior" evolution of the power oriented DOHC VTEC implementation, describing DOHC VTEC as "the older 2-stage VTEC" and implying an inferior relationship. This is totally wrong because DOHC VTEC is tuned purely for high specific output and sports/racing requirements. 3-stage VTEC is in truth an evolution of SOHC VTEC and VTEC-E, merging the two implementations into one.

io_303
10-16-2005, 03:08 AM
vtec = high profile up in the topend
e-vtec is for economy fame basic concept but in the low end
3 stage, well it has 3 stages, but its still vtec, how is his statement wrong?

Eran
10-16-2005, 03:08 AM
VTEC-E

A novel implementation of VTEC in SOHC engines is the VTEC-E implementation (E for Economy). VTEC-E uses the principle of swirling to promote more efficient air-and-fuel mixing in the engine chambers. VTEC-E works by deactivating one intake valve. Examine the diagram below.

http://asia.vtec.net/spfeature/vtecimpl/img8.jpg

In the SOHC VTEC-E implementation, only one intake cam-lobe is implemented on the camshaft. Actually it is really a flat "ring". In operation this means the relevant rocker arm will not be activated causing the engine to effectively work in 12-valve mode. This promotes a swirl action during the intake cycle. VTEC is used to activate the inactive valve, making the engine work in 16-valve mode in more demanding and higher rpm conditions. Honda was able to implement air-fuel mixture ratios of more than 20:1 in VTEC-E during the 12-valve operating mode. The SOHC VTEC-E engined EG-series Civic ETi is able to return fuel consumptions of as good as 20km/litre or better!!

SOHC VTEC implemented for power is often mistaken as SOHC VTEC-E which is implemented for economy. It is worthwhile to note that the 1.5l SOHC VTEC-E used in the JDM Honda Civic ETi produces 92ps. This is in fact less than that produced by the standard 1.5l SOHC engine's 100ps which uses dual Keihin side-draft carburettors. SOHC VTEC in the D15B produces 130ps. This is 30% more than the standard SOHC implementation !

io_303
10-16-2005, 03:10 AM
nice eran, i was to lazy to go get all that.

Eran
10-16-2005, 03:10 AM
nice eran, i was to lazy to go get all that.

:werd: to your moms.

drumminforev
10-16-2005, 03:12 AM
What the

I know what VTEC does. I am not asking for an explanation of how it works.

I am asking how to tell from looking physically at an engine which type of vtec its running.
Make sense?

io_303
10-16-2005, 03:14 AM
look at the engine code then go do a search and see wht kind of vtec you have. if its a JDM d15b you have 3 stage, if its usdm d15 you have no vtec

drumminforev
10-16-2005, 03:16 AM
That is what i am here to clarify. A d15b JDM is 3-stage vtec no matter what, correct. I know there are d15b8 and etc so i didnt know if it was someone being lazy forgetting the last number.

Eran
10-16-2005, 03:17 AM
the only d15 that has vtec-e is the D15Z1 (USDM).

If you have a D15B that is vtec (95+), it's going to be 3-Stage.
http://asia.vtec.net/spfeature/vtecimpl/img8.jpg

The D15B that DOESN'T have vtec is a turd. It has 60bhp.

The way you can tell if it's a jdm motor is if the engine code doesn't have a # after the 2nd letter.

IE- B16A = JDM, B16A3 = USDM

wannabe
10-16-2005, 03:18 AM
Ej7 = Hx = Vtec-e

io_303
10-16-2005, 03:18 AM
d15b8 is 70hp turd

io_303
10-16-2005, 03:19 AM
http://www.clubcivic.com/board/engine-codes.php

that will help you

io_303
10-16-2005, 03:20 AM
the only d15 that has vtec-e is the D15Z1 (USDM).

If you have a D15B that is vtec (95+), it's going to be 3-Stage.
http://asia.vtec.net/spfeature/vtecimpl/img8.jpg

The D15B that DOESN'T have vtec is a turd. It has 60bhp.

The way you can tell if it's a jdm motor is if the engine code doesn't have a # after the 2nd letter.

IE- B16A = JDM, B16A3 = USDM

guess my d info is a little off

Eran
10-16-2005, 03:21 AM
feck, I posted the wrong link.

http://asia.vtec.net/article/d15b/

deaconwagers
10-16-2005, 03:21 AM
damn, eran. lay down the f'in law, right?

drumminforev
10-16-2005, 03:24 AM
Appreciate the clarification guys, espeically about the JDM non lettering after the code, never knew that,

And funny cuz i just figured out how to tell if its 3 stage, looking how many solenoids it has...duh (two in this case compared to the 1 in vtec regular)

Anyone have a link to a pic of where the solenoids are located and look like,

ShinsenTuner
10-16-2005, 03:29 AM
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/24/vtecsolenoid1if.jpg

Correct me if i'm wrong since I dont know anything about VTEC. :roll:

Eran
10-16-2005, 03:31 AM
Here's some D15B 3-Stages. So you can know what they look like.

http://www.naganojapanese.com/fat/d15b.jpg

http://www.jdm-online.com/honda/images/d15b.jpg

http://www.jhotexports.com/images/d15b_2107_1.jpg
http://www.jhotexports.com/images/d15b_2107_2.jpg
http://www.jhotexports.com/images/d15b_2107_3.jpg
http://www.jhotexports.com/images/d15b_2107_4.jpg
http://www.jhotexports.com/images/d15b_2107_5.jpg

drumminforev
10-16-2005, 02:54 PM
Thanks gsr and eran.

Eran, i am not finding the solenoids in those pics. If they are visible, give me an idea where they are. The pics are very helpful, i see the patttern of 4 connectors on the top head and the knob upper right.

JCrimson
10-16-2005, 03:32 PM
im not going to say who, but some one just got
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a305/JCrimson/owned-kid.jpg


lol

Blazed
10-17-2005, 01:02 PM
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/24/vtecsolenoid1if.jpg

Correct me if i'm wrong since I dont know anything about VTEC. :roll:
:werd:
let em know youngin :rolf:
and that is one ugly obd2 swap :lol:

J32a2OwnsU
10-17-2005, 01:12 PM
I dont see them (Vtec solenoid(s) ) in the D15B pix either.......

Why are you swapping such a weak ass motor into your car?

The essence of 3-stage VTEC is power AND economy implemented on a 1.5l SOHC PGM-Fi engine. Many people mistakes 3-stage VTEC as a "superior" evolution of the power oriented DOHC VTEC implementation, describing DOHC VTEC as "the older 2-stage VTEC" and implying an inferior relationship. This is totally wrong because DOHC VTEC is tuned purely for high specific output and sports/racing requirements. 3-stage VTEC is in truth an evolution of SOHC VTEC and VTEC-E, merging the two implementations into one.

trainjunkie
10-17-2005, 09:50 PM
you can easily find a 3 stage vtec motor vs a regular vtec engine, look for the solenoids, high-low vtec engines use one solenoid while the swirl/low/high (3 stage) use 2 solenoids, honda did not get rid of 3 stage, they simplified it, instead of using a complicated system to produce swirl, why not use staggered intake lobes! right? right. Take a look at a y8 camshaft, you can see the stagger on the primary and secondary intake lobes (not vtec lobe)

trainjunkie
10-17-2005, 09:54 PM
vtec is for engine efficiency, not power, the side effect of vtec is power, the differeing cam lobes allow the engine to breathe more efficiently at various rpm's as compared to a non vtec engine. As an engine climbs in rpm, it's ve decreases due to less time to fill the cylinders, so it takes a more aggressive camshaft to allow the engine to fill the cylinders properly and promptly. Engine efficiency and power go hand in hand, they always have.

drumminforev
10-17-2005, 11:13 PM
I want this engine obviously because it will womp on gas mileage. pushing 12 valves will be an easy 40mpg in a light hatch. Im talkin to JDM engine dealers and they are ALL telling me that their 92-95 jdm d15b is a regular 1 solenoid vtec. are they smoking crack or are there different jdm d15b engines.

How easy to swap this engine. any special harness needed, ecu upgrade, etc. should i do it or pay someone to do it. never done it before but if it is not hard, i can pick up quick. any reference to articles previously talking about swapping a d15b 3 stage into a 5th gen would be nice.

trainjunkie. I wouldnt want a d16y8. that will suck ass on gas.

trainjunkie
10-18-2005, 01:11 PM
no i woudln't say that a y8 is hard on fuel, i own one myself, i can easily get 40mpg while cruising with a heavy foot, 96 si coupe with 5 speed manual. (Canadian)

drumminforev
10-18-2005, 02:34 PM
Really, how is that. You must have your car tuned extremely well...? gas mileage is important for me driving 50+ to schoool every day

Beelzebubba
10-18-2005, 02:50 PM
Doesn't matter whether it's vtec "optimized for power", vtec-e "optimized for economy", or 3 stage vtec. It's only got one bumpstick.

teh weakness!

drumminforev
10-18-2005, 07:54 PM
if by bumpstick you mean solenoid, cuz if so then that is horribly wrong.

J32a2OwnsU
10-18-2005, 08:50 PM
if by bumpstick you mean solenoid, cuz if so then that is horribly wrong. ha ha ha.. Im SURE he meant the cam(s)................

the solenoid looks nothing like a stick or bumpy.... lol

Beelzebubba
10-19-2005, 11:24 AM
1. bumpstick
A camshaft; the part of a typical engine that is timed with the crankshaft to actuate the valves.
Karl has a serious bumpstick in that thing, listen to the lope!



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