2005 Civic LX: Cranks but intermittent hard/no start

rockpatrol

New Member
Hi guys,
I bought a used '05 Civic LX (manual) with ~101K miles a few months ago. Every month or so, when I try to start it, it cranks and cranks and cranks. If I wait a few minutes and try again, it either lugs for a moment (almost like it's not getting enough fuel) and then comes up to idle, or it simply fires up as usual. It then runs like nothing happened, runs fine, doesn't stall, has power, revs up when I want it to, etc.

A few things:
  • There are no codes being thrown. Zip, nada, except for the knock sensor a while back - I replaced that, cleared it, and it's been gone since.
  • I've seen this happen in different kinds of weather. And if it makes any difference, each time this has happened, the car was driven earlier in the day but had probably cooled down since then. Once when moving the car late afternoon after work, once when getting groceries, once after being in a meeting for an hour or two. Ambient temperatures ranging from a warm late summer CA afternoon to cold, raining OR weather. I started the car last night when it was ~4C and raining, and it fired up just fine for the temperature, so I don't think that has anything doing.
  • Letting the fuel pump pressurize a few times before cranking vs letting it pressurize a little vs cranking immediately doesn't seem to make much of a difference.
This sounds exactly like a PGM-FI #1 failure on a 6th gen, except that there's no such part on the 7th gens.

I've already replaced:
  • Battery - First thing I did, since it was 8 years old anyway. Didn't fix anything (though good to replace nonetheless).
  • Knock sensor - P0325 code. Cleared the code but didn't fix the starting issue, didn't think it would.
  • Spark plugs - I figured that wouldn't help, and it didn't, but ~101K miles is about time anyway. The previous ones were a bit fouled up - looked like some sort of rust almost. Dirty looking electrodes for sure.
  • Fuel pump relay. Didn't change anything. And besides, I've heard the fuel pump prime just fine even when the car's right in the middle of acting up for a few minutes.

My thoughts at this point... fuel delivery? Intermittently faulty sensor? (like the crankshaft sensor - known to not throw codes when it dies) Immobilizer? I have not checked the fuel pressure since I don't have the tools, but that might be next on my todo list if autozone can lend me one. I've also heard of the coolant temp sensor, although the OBDII readings from it look perfectly reasonable - unless it can work fine, then go berserk intermittently? Or a fuel pump check valve? Fuel filter?

Any ideas? Everyone seems to be stumped at this one. Thanks!
 
Last edited:

dancam

Member
Registered VIP
I have the exact problem with my 2002 civic except it always starts if you keep cranking and the only thing i have replaced is spark plugs. It was fine for the first year or 2 i owned it and its been doing this for just under a year for me. Its got me stumped...
Hopefully someone has suggestions? My thoughts had been it was the immobilizer but i dont know. It happens so infrequently its hard for me to test anything. I had previously thought that maybe some sensor or part had a bad ground that only was a problem with lower voltage from cranking- but that doesnt account for the infrequent occurrence or there being no difference with ambient temperature and it being more common after the car has run that day.


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rockpatrol

New Member
Hmm, interesting. Come to think of it, there were a few incidents where it took a fair bit longer than usual to crank, maybe a second try needed (I don't like holding it too long), but not nearly as bad as the 3 where it flat out wouldn't start until I waited a few minutes. Although it wasn't always run earlier in the day when that happened - I've seen it be a little (only a little) tricky to start on my own driveway.

Thing is, this kinda sounds like a crankshaft sensor issue (common on 7ths from what I've heard), save for it not stalling when driving (and I hope to hell that doesn't happen - could be luck). And naturally, they hid that particular thing deep down in the car, which I'm not comfortable disassembling down to.
 

dancam

Member
Registered VIP
I just hold it untill it starts. Longest has been about 5 seconds for me. (A long time to crank for a fuel injected car).
I dont think the crank sensor is too hard to get at. I think its just remove belts, one or 2 pulleys and the lower timing cover. I would have to check though. But like you said, it usually has problems when driving as well.


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rockpatrol

New Member
Ehh... it's worse than average on this car. You basically have to get down to the timing belt cover, from what I've read, which I'm not comfortable doing myself. Not exactly an easy or cheap job. And it's a shame, because the timing belt/water pump were replaced only ~1200mi ago, before I bought the car.

The local dealer quoted me $88 (needing the car for 3 hours) to diagnose the issue... which might not even work, given how sporadic it is. On the other hand, I'm running out of ideas (that I have the equipment to test anyway). Think I should just do it?
 

rockpatrol

New Member
You know, I had a thought - how likely is it for the fuel filter to cause the issue? If not the pump itself? (Or the check valve - not sure I can replace that without changing the whole pump.)
 

dancam

Member
Registered VIP
As far as i can find they dont have a fuel filter. If you find one please tell me!
I dont know if it could be the pump, i would think that the car would have other issues while running as well. But i really dont know.


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rockpatrol

New Member
From what I've heard, the fuel filter is in the fuel pump here, which in turn is accessed by removing the rear seats (I'm so glad I got the 4-door/sedan...). Doesn't sound that difficult, if removing the rear seats in a CR-V is anything to go by. A few bolts in the right places, and it's out. You usually change both (fuel filter + pump, not the rear seats) at once, although it sounds like changing either is uncommon for this car. Although the fuel pump is mentioned in NHTSA bulletins for this car. .

The reason I wonder about the pump is because it seems to start better if I let it prime first, particularly if I do it more than once before cranking. That might be somewhat normal though.
 

dancam

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From what I've heard, the fuel filter is in the fuel pump here, which in turn is accessed by removing the rear seats (I'm so glad I got the 4-door/sedan...). Doesn't sound that difficult, if removing the rear seats in a CR-V is anything to go by. A few bolts in the right places, and it's out. You usually change both (fuel filter + pump, not the rear seats) at once, although it sounds like changing either is uncommon for this car. Although the fuel pump is mentioned in NHTSA bulletins for this car. .

The reason I wonder about the pump is because it seems to start better if I let it prime first, particularly if I do it more than once before cranking. That might be somewhat normal though.
Thats just the sock right? I dont call the sock a filter, its just to keep rust chunks and rocks out of the pump and theres an actual filter after the pump on most cars. Or do you mean there is an actual fuel filter in the tank, not just the screen/sock?


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rockpatrol

New Member
Hmm - yeah, I think it's a sock. I've heard about this before... apparently some cars have 2 fuel filters of sorts, which explains what you're talking about, but this car only has the one.
 

rockpatrol

New Member
New idea - maybe this car is just derpy when it's low on gas? (Not the first time I've heard of Civics doing this.) I do know that at least some of the times I've had starting issues, that the car had under half a tank. I filled it up today (was down to a third), and it started easily afterwards. I hit the freeway/fast country roads for a bit, even revved it to 6K in 2nd a few times (when taking off) for the hell of it, and it behaved just fine.
 

dancam

Member
Registered VIP
Hmm, yours is worse than mine but i have not noticed that. I normally run mine down till its on empty or the light comes on and i haven't noticed that. It could be though because i haven't been looking for that in particular but i would like to think i would have noticed.


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dancam

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New idea - maybe this car is just derpy when it's low on gas? (Not the first time I've heard of Civics doing this.) I do know that at least some of the times I've had starting issues, that the car had under half a tank. I filled it up today (was down to a third), and it started easily afterwards. I hit the freeway/fast country roads for a bit, even revved it to 6K in 2nd a few times (when taking off) for the hell of it, and it behaved just fine.
It looks like i was mistaken about the fuel filter. I was corrected by another member here on a different post. I looked into it and there is a sock on the pump but there is a secondary 'cardboard' filter inside the pump. You have to buy the whole pump or half a pump or something from what i saw. People were saying you actually have to cut the pump housing open to even see it and theirs were pretty plugged up. They are called 'lifetime filters' by honda but people seem to have them plug long before the mileage i am at with my civic. Replacing it seems to resolve the issue that you and i have for most people in the little i have read about it so far.
It looks fairly easy to replace as long as your careful and take your time. Here is a link to one article i read about it: http://www.civicforums.com/forums/115-engine/343526-how-fuel-strainer-fuel-filter-replacement.html
It describes how to replace it and what part you need. I dont think im going to do mine right away, but probably in 6 months or so. I just put a ton of money into that stupid car and im a bit sick of working on it. Let me know if your going to do it though and how it turns out if you do. Sorry for the misinformation earlier.


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dancam

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I also found a tsb from may 2, 2006 for 2003-2004 honda accords. It may not be the same thing but it says that for long crank time or hard starting its the fuel pressure regulator intermittently sticking so replace it or exhaust backflow into the intake manifold at shutdown causes it. Its tsb # 03-079 if you wanna look it up


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