Need help, Car running rich, sometimes CEL, and takes FOREVER to warm up

[alexbartlett93]

So i've looked around all night for some info as to what might be going on with my car, can't find anything, so lets see what you guys think. I have a 1995 Honda Civic EX with a jdm D15b e-vtec swap, five speed tranny of course. The car runs good, i've had it since november of 2013 roughly with no problems really, i go on 300 mile roadtrips every once in awhile and everythings good. Except my back end is liberally blackened and every once in a while, maybe, strong maybe, once a week i get a CEL, which i just checked and idk if i'm doing it right but i think it was a code 7, TPS, this comes on usually when i'm driving cold and up a hill or sometimes just on the freeway, it doesn't stay on after i turn the car off. the car sitting will take probably more than 20 min to warm up, or even to start warming up, when i drive to work i usually get there and the car has barely started to warm up after a ten/15 minute commute. My thermostat is fine, i can't stress that enough, i have thought it was the problem twice and replaced it. all hoses are solid, basic tune ups get done by myself as they need to be done.
Now i was reading on another forum and a guy had a problem running rich and someone asked "do you have trouble warming up?" and unfortunately the guy didn't, so there wasn't much after that for me. So any ideas on this? I'm interested if anyone can follow up on the trouble warming up part, because that and the fact i run rich have been my main concerns here.

Summary:

Car has about 198xxx miles on its chassis
gets good mpg
takes forever to warm up, even while being driven
vtec bogs if i hit it cold (i know to warm my engine up, just experimenting)
in fact reving to fiveK rpm in neutral bogs so maybe not vtec bogging
ass end of the car is covered in black soot maybe oil or unburned fuel
CEL says 7 TPS but i could have read that wrong, its my first time reading obd1 or whatever i have
thermostat and cooling system are on point
car does reach operating temperature and its proper
it seems to lose the temp rapidly after i turn the car off (at costco i'll be in for a minute and come back to a completely cold car again, other 95 civic would still have a bit of temp on it)
not sure what else to add but any help is appreciated and i can always add more detail
thanks

 

[HeX]

You speak with too much vagueness which doesnt help your cause.

First, if you're judging your engine temperature solely by the temp. gauge then you are not being thorough. The fact that you vaguely state your car seems to cool down rapidly at a short stop also makes me doubt you're manually inspecting for temperature changes. After 10-15 minutes, your radiator and hoses should feel quite warm to the touch. If they do yet your temp. gauge is reading cool but you insist you replaced the thermostat then somethings preventing it from reading properly. Consider flushing your system if you havent already.

Secondly, please specify what mileage you get. Also, the D15B does NOT have e-vtec which furthers the belief that you may be making several false assumptions. They have either vtec or 3-stage vtec.

Thirdly, if you have black soot at the rear bumber then you're running very rich and gas is getting into the exhaust. Had it been oil you would have smoke.

- What maintenance have you performed on it? (Fuel filter, fuel system cleaning, injector inspection/cleaning, air filter, valve cover gaskets, etc)
- Have you checked the coolant for sludge?
- Have you checked the oil for foaming?
- Have you used Honda or aftermarket thermostats?
- Have you inspected for exhaust or oil leaks?
- Is there moisture at or in your muffler tip after driving?
- Have you changed the Throttle Position Sensor or even visually inspected it?
- What is the exact CEL code being given and what are you using to check for a code?

 

[alexbartlett93]

You speak with too much vagueness which doesnt help your cause.

First, if you're judging your engine temperature solely by the temp. gauge then you are not being thorough. The fact that you vaguely state your car seems to cool down rapidly at a short stop also makes me doubt you're manually inspecting for temperature changes. After 10-15 minutes, your radiator and hoses should feel quite warm to the touch. If they do yet your temp. gauge is reading cool but you insist you replaced the thermostat then somethings preventing it from reading properly. Consider flushing your system if you havent already.

Secondly, please specify what mileage you get. Also, the D15B does NOT have e-vtec which furthers the belief that you may be making several false assumptions. They have either vtec or 3-stage vtec.

Thirdly, if you have black soot at the rear bumber then you're running very rich and gas is getting into the exhaust. Had it been oil you would have smoke.

- What maintenance have you performed on it? (Fuel filter, fuel system cleaning, injector inspection/cleaning, air filter, valve cover gaskets, etc)
- Have you checked the coolant for sludge?
- Have you checked the oil for foaming?
- Have you used Honda or aftermarket thermostats?
- Have you inspected for exhaust or oil leaks?
- Is there moisture at or in your muffler tip after driving?
- Have you changed the Throttle Position Sensor or even visually inspected it?
- What is the exact CEL code being given and what are you using to check for a code?

I'll have to check the hose temps after i get off work tomorrow, and flush once i get a chance (apartments don't like me working on the car here)
Dont forget the engine bogs and gets stupid around 5k rpm when driving it cold (i feel like that part is important)
when the car is warmed up properly i can hit vtec and rev up no problem
I might look into changing my temp sending unit? not sure if its part of the equation
Its a d15b, i'm not sure if its 3-stage or not, the valve cover just says vtec-e (not e-vtec if it matters) then again this might not mean much
Now MPG i'll have to change my driving, i drive hard when i get long stretches and onramps and so on, but for the mileage for the whole tank i can drive from los angeles to san luis obispo (4 hours, a little bit less than 300 miles) and still have over a quarter tank left to drive around, so i'm doing pretty good for how i drive especially, in the city i'd say i get around 300 miles to the tank, little bit more if i try to really push it
Its my thoughts now that it is me running rich, i've been thinking that for some time since i don't really see smoke come out very often
When i first got the car back in november/december it was owned by a field worker, and beat to s***, so i replaced pretty much every gasket on the top and by the dizzy, including the headgasket of course and the vc gasket. Spark plugs/wires, new battery, the starter, I also replaced every coolant and throttle body hose with honda hoses. I replaced the fuel filter, and changed the oil/oil filter, it has a short ram intake so i didn't do an air filter, replaced the waterpump, timing belt, all the pulleys and the tensioner, did the a/c belt and the alternator belt and p/s belt, i have been wanting to put some Techron fuel cleaner in we have a bunch of it at work for a good price, i'll take recommendations for the best fuel treatment if you have them, and lastly i think, i put a new cat on it. also not that it matters but a new brake master cylinder and all that. I always zero my cars out when i first buy them, keeps me up to date on maintenance
Coolant in both radiator and overflow tank seem to be fine, the cars headgasket was blown when i got it so theres a small amount of grime on the inside of the overflow tank but i cleaned it a bit
Would i see the oil foaming on the dip stick or should i pull the valve cover? i haven't seen any foam i have checked the oil out
I use murray thermostats for the d16z6 its my understanding that most D series engines parts are similar if not same. Most, not all
I've checked around the engine externally for oil leaks, i really tried to eliminate those when i first got the car, haven't checked for exhaust leaks, should i just soap and water the connecting pieces on my exhaust?
I'll check tomorrow when i get to work if i have moisture back there, typically its just black but i haven't been looking for moisture
I haven't gotten to it, i read the code kind of late at night and i'm in for the night
I'm using a paper clip and putting it into the blue plug under my passengerside dash, then i'm counting the CEL flashes, i'm not sure if i'm counting right, it would flash slow, then quickly then stop for a second and repeat flashing in various speeds, i counted seven but i counted all the flashes i wasn't sure if the speeds of the flash meant anything. I could go to sears and get it read i'm sure, but if i can do it myself i prefer to, i just don't have a code reader, or the money for one.. my rent is ridiculous
So its midnight, sorry if i didn't answer anything clearly just let me know if you need more details.

 

[XpL0d3r]

Also, the D15B does NOT have e-vtec which furthers the belief that you may be making several false assumptions. They have either vtec or 3-stage vtec.

JDM D15B motors have Vtec-E.

I'm using a paper clip and putting it into the blue plug under my passenger side dash, then i'm counting the CEL flashes, i'm not sure if i'm counting right, it would flash slow, then quickly then stop for a second and repeat flashing in various speeds, i counted seven but i counted all the flashes i wasn't sure if the speeds of the flash meant anything.

Count 10 for each slow flash, then 1 for each quick flash.

For examples:
If you had Code 7 you'd just see 7 quick flashes.
If it flashes slow, slow, slow, quick, quick, quick, quick, then you'd get Code 34.

EDIT: If you have more than one code, there will be a short pause between them. When it reaches the end the codes will continuously repeat.

 

[xxBLOOD88SHOTxx]

You're sure your tstat isn't stuck open?

Taking longer to warm up will kill MPG, and by the sounds of it that is exactly what it is.

You need to actually calculate your MPG mathematically, that will really tell you what is going on.

Oh and figure out what CELs it's throwing.

 

[alexbartlett93]

JDM D15B motors have Vtec-E.




Count 10 for each slow flash, then 1 for each quick flash.

For examples:
If you had Code 7 you'd just see 7 quick flashes.
If it flashes slow, slow, slow, quick, quick, quick, quick, then you'd get Code 34.

EDIT: If you have more than one code, there will be a short pause between them. When it reaches the end the codes will continuously repeat.

Thanks for the info! i really didn't think i was doing it right lol

You're sure your tstat isn't stuck open?

Taking longer to warm up will kill MPG, and by the sounds of it that is exactly what it is.

You need to actually calculate your MPG mathematically, that will really tell you what is going on.

Oh and figure out what CELs it's throwing.

i'm 99% sure its not stuck open, it was when i bought the car and when it was legit stuck open it wouldn't reach operating temp at all it would reach maybe half of that, so i've replaced it since then twice, the 1% is the thought that something is making it get stuck open but would it keep happening back to back? Someone else was saying something about running rich and having trouble warming up being related so im interested in learning more about the coronations there. also how to stop my engine from running rich so i don't damage anything internally, and so i can have a clean car lol.
My mpg seem to be on point, especially since i drive kinda hard. i'm not sure what makes you think my mpg are suffering, i go from la to slo which is a four hour commute and compared to my other civic i actually do a little better on gas mileage but anythings possible, and now that i know how to read the cel codes i'm gonna go out and do it again see what i can come up with this time

- Is there moisture at or in your muffler tip after driving?
[/B]

None that i noticed today, it was pretty dry back there. also keep in mind in california its been hot lately 79 degrees F today

I have two codes being thrown, and like i said i'm using the blue jumper plug under my dash,
I have a code 1 which is the o2 sensor i believe
I have a code 43 as well, which i'm not sure but it has something to do with fuel i think

You're sure your tstat isn't stuck open?

Taking longer to warm up will kill MPG, and by the sounds of it that is exactly what it is.

You need to actually calculate your MPG mathematically, that will really tell you what is going on.

Oh and figure out what CELs it's throwing.

I have a code 1 and 43
1 is o2 sensor and i'm not sure what 43 is, they aren't always on tho like i said earlier, they seem to pop up randomly, but almost always while cruising on the freeway at 68mph

 

[HeX]

JDM D15B motors have Vtec-E.

Thanks for correcting me. Apparently, the source where I got that info was clearly wrong. Would that engine also have an EGR chamber? If so, he should clean it out.

I haven't gotten to it, i read the code kind of late at night and i'm in for the night
I'm using a paper clip and putting it into the blue plug under my passengerside dash, then i'm counting the CEL flashes, i'm not sure if i'm counting right, it would flash slow, then quickly then stop for a second and repeat flashing in various speeds, i counted seven but i counted all the flashes i wasn't sure if the speeds of the flash meant anything. I could go to sears and get it read i'm sure, but if i can do it myself i prefer to, i just don't have a code reader, or the money for one.

Visit a local AutoZone. They offer free code scanning. Having an exact code or codes could save you alot of this guesswork.

I might look into changing my temp sending unit? not sure if its part of the equation

It could be, but try to eliminate other potential options first before taking the risk of buying new parts. That is unless you rather just swap it to be on the safe side since you stated you like replacing anything you can when you buy a used car.

Now MPG i'll have to change my driving, i drive hard when i get long stretches and onramps and so on, but for the mileage for the whole tank i can drive from los angeles to san luis obispo (4 hours, a little bit less than 300 miles) and still have over a quarter tank left to drive around, so i'm doing pretty good for how i drive especially, in the city i'd say i get around 300 miles to the tank, little bit more if i try to really push it
Its my thoughts now that it is me running rich

You need to start calculating your actual Miles Per Gallon (MPG) not just miles per fill-up. You being unable to give us exact numbers doesnt prove whether or not youre getting good or poor fuel efficiency.

i have been wanting to put some Techron fuel cleaner in we have a bunch of it at work for a good price, i'll take recommendations for the best fuel treatment if you have them

My suggestion is to use the 20-gallon Techron fuel system cleaner on half a tankful. I also suggest you inspect the injectors before anything.

Would i see the oil foaming on the dip stick or should i pull the valve cover? i haven't seen any foam i have checked the oil out

Just open the oil cap on the valve cover. Thatll give you a clear enough view.

I use murray thermostats for the d16z6 its my understanding that most D series engines parts are similar if not same. Most, not all

I suggest you compare thermostat model numbers to be sure.

I've checked around the engine externally for oil leaks, i really tried to eliminate those when i first got the car, haven't checked for exhaust leaks, should i just soap and water the connecting pieces on my exhaust?

The exhaust system will get hot and dissipate the water. Visually and auditorily inspect for exhaust leaks. Perhaps have someone rev the engine as you inspect potential leak spots.

Man, you seem to have a bad habit of assuming frequently. Its good practice to take some extra time for attention to detail to prevent missing issues. I wouldnt be surprised if one of your shortcut assumption methods has lead to one or a few of your issues. Take this as constructive criticism.

 

[alexbartlett93]

Thanks for correcting me. Apparently, the source where I got that info was clearly wrong. Would that engine also have an EGR chamber? If so, he should clean it out.


Visit a local AutoZone. They offer free code scanning. Having an exact code or codes could save you alot of this guesswork.


It could be, but try to eliminate other potential options first before taking the risk of buying new parts. That is unless you rather just swap it to be on the safe side since you stated you like replacing anything you can when you buy a used car.


You need to start calculating your actual Miles Per Gallon (MPG) not just miles per fill-up. You being unable to give us exact numbers doesnt prove whether or not youre getting good or poor fuel efficiency.


My suggestion is to use the 20-gallon Techron fuel system cleaner on half a tankful. I also suggest you inspect the injectors before anything.


Just open the oil cap on the valve cover. Thatll give you a clear enough view.


I suggest you compare thermostat model numbers to be sure.


The exhaust system will get hot and dissipate the water. Visually and auditorily inspect for exhaust leaks. Perhaps have someone rev the engine as you inspect potential leak spots.

Man, you seem to have a bad habit of assuming frequently. Its good practice to take some extra time for attention to detail to prevent missing issues. I wouldnt be surprised if one of your shortcut assumption methods has lead to one or a few of your issues. Take this as constructive criticism.

So here's what i've done today, i put some Lucas fuel cleaner in did a 20 gal treatment (so should work like techron, if not, i can get it cheap) when i got fuel at costco today.
autozone and my store (oreillys) or any retail/parts store don't do free code scanning, its illegal in california unfortunately but the codes have been read
My hanes manual says code 43 is Fuel Supply System/Oxygen sensor, and code 1 we know is Oxygen Content, so like i said (maybe didn't say) i'm gonna check my fuel pressure regulator and replace my o2 sensor (i may do that later because i don't wanna ruin the new one with unburned fuel) also I'll check for vacuum leaks and exhaust leaks again (I've been planning to put 4-2-1 headers on so now would be a good time i guess to eliminate leaks up there)

no foam in my oil on a hot or cold engine (I've checked under the valve cover by opening the oil cap)
I'll get the number from Honda and check my murray tstat just to be safe.

Whats a good equation to calculate mpg? should i just divide my miles to the tank by tank capacity? example: 300/11.9 (I've always done it by the tank and reset my trip meter whenever i fill up, just thinking maybe someone has a better equation than me)

I think these engines (D15B) have egr, i read somewhere that i do

Also the car is most likely not doing this from anything I've done to it, since its been running like this the entire time I've owned it. I also don't act on false assumptions. as stupid as i may sound on a forum i am very careful with my actions, especially when it comes to working on my car. If you take care of your car, it will take care of you. You seem to have a grip on vehicle knowledge so no hard feelings, you just keep throwing the word assumption around like I'm trying to get this done quickly rather than correctly when that's not the case, i just want to make that clear, so if I'm throwing ideas out that don't make sense, its because i wanna know if they make sense, I'm not going to act on something if I'm not 100% sure, trust me on that

 

[HeX]

So here's what i've done today, i put some Lucas fuel cleaner in did a 20 gal treatment (so should work like techron, if not, i can get it cheap) when i got fuel at costco today.

Let us know how that goes.

autozone and my store (oreillys) or any retail/parts store don't do free code scanning, its illegal in california

Wow. Thats surprising.

no foam in my oil on a hot or cold engine (I've checked under the valve cover by opening the oil cap)
I'll get the number from Honda and check my murray tstat just to be safe.

Its good you have no foam, but you can look up all part numbers needed online quite easily.

Whats a good equation to calculate mpg? should i just divide my miles to the tank by tank capacity? example: 300/11.9 (I've always done it by the tank and reset my trip meter whenever i fill up, just thinking maybe someone has a better equation than me)

There is only one way to calculate MIles Per Gallon: miles driven divided by gallons used (gallons just filled up). You cant divide by your tank capacity because your not driving until the tank is completely empty. Driving it close to empty is also not a good practice if you intend to take care of your engine.

I think these engines (D15B) have egr, i read somewhere that i do

Someone with knowledge on these engines please confirm this.

Also the car is most likely not doing this from anything I've done to it, since its been running like this the entire time I've owned it. I also don't act on false assumptions. as stupid as i may sound on a forum i am very careful with my actions, especially when it comes to working on my car. If you take care of your car, it will take care of you. You seem to have a grip on vehicle knowledge so no hard feelings, you just keep throwing the word assumption around like I'm trying to get this done quickly rather than correctly when that's not the case, i just want to make that clear, so if I'm throwing ideas out that don't make sense, its because i wanna know if they make sense, I'm not going to act on something if I'm not 100% sure, trust me on that

I dont mean to be insulting as I am only going by your written words since you write more vaguely than in specific details.

 

[alexbartlett93]

Let us know how that goes.


Wow. Thats surprising.


Its good you have no foam, but you can look up all part numbers needed online quite easily.


There is only one way to calculate MIles Per Gallon: miles driven divided by gallons used (gallons just filled up). You cant divide by your tank capacity because your not driving until the tank is completely empty. Driving it close to empty is also not a good practice if you intend to take care of your engine.


Someone with knowledge on these engines please confirm this.



I dont mean to be insulting as I am only going by your written words since you write more vaguely than in specific details.

Yeah in california we have laws out the ass about every single little tedious detail you can imagine, retail stores and parts places actually can't read codes for anyone in any situation actually, i get asked that a lot and i always send people to sears or amco, luckily i have a haynes manual with all the codes in it.
The lucas fuel treatment, i'm not sure if it helped out any, i see to be getting the same fuel mileage as before but driving hard will do that i guess. I would say i'm getting around 33 mpg then with my driving, being on a freeway for four hours without a lot of traffic i can get around 43-45 if things go well, my guess of 50 was just that on the freeway my mpg is f**king amazing and i get back and forth from san luis obispo to la with way more gas left than my previous ej civic. i run my tank pretty low, but of course not super low as this would get air into my fuel pump and you know already, bad car care.

the d15b with vtec-e is supposed to have egr but yeah if someone can confirm this that would be appreciated.

I have a fuel pressure test kit that i got from work i'm gonna try to figure out how to hook it up. also it has a multi meter, should i test the numbers on my tps?

 

[lethal6]

There is no way you know what mileage you are getting. The way you calculate is completely wrong and is giving you false high readings.

Getting air into the fuel pump has nothing to do with it. It's the fact that with it that low you are literally burning up your fuel pump. They run hot because there is barely any fuel to keep them cool as they run.

Also, don't judge it based on what the valve cover says. Some jack ass put a vtec valve cover on mine and it didn't have vtec. Still don't know how they did that as I thought the valve covers for vtec and non-vtec were completely different.

LOOK at the stamp on your head. If it says P08, you have a vtec motor (the 130hp one). If it says P07, you have the baby vtec-e that ONLY came in the vx and has 92hp.

The P08 vtec does NOT have an egr valve, the P07 vtec-e does.

 

[alexbartlett93]

There is no way you know what mileage you are getting. The way you calculate is completely wrong and is giving you false high readings.

Getting air into the fuel pump has nothing to do with it. It's the fact that with it that low you are literally burning up your fuel pump. They run hot because there is barely any fuel to keep them cool as they run.

Also, don't judge it based on what the valve cover says. Some jack ass put a vtec valve cover on mine and it didn't have vtec. Still don't know how they did that as I thought the valve covers for vtec and non-vtec were completely different.

LOOK at the stamp on your head. If it says P08, you have a vtec motor (the 130hp one). If it says P07, you have the baby vtec-e that ONLY came in the vx and has 92hp.

The P08 vtec does NOT have an egr valve, the P07 vtec-e does.

Yeah we've already established my equation was wrong, and i was already provided with the correct one.. thanks... I don't drive my cars out of gas, maybe i wasn't clear on that.. but yeah about 33mpg with the way i drive, I'm driving pretty light on this next tank of fuel so i can do the math and get a economical number for you guys. (i drive too hard too often to get a good reading) I've been busy with personal stuff, and work, and i'm doing the ball joints and camber kit on my front end so i've been a little slow to reply but its coming.

 

[lscivic48]

you check the coolant temp sensor? it sounds like the coolant temp sensor is not reading properly and leaving the car in open loop which would cover almost every problem you are describing. sometimes the hardest problem is the simplest solution.