not everyone has hookups like you, most of us have to order the motors through an engine warehouse. you cant rely on having a buddy with a swap crashing or something like that it you really want it done. there are no b16a sir's in american junkyards, or if there are, there are very very few. ditto b16a2 and a3's and b18c1 and c5. these are the motors everyones looking for. honda never made that many usdm gsr's, del sol vtec's and itr's to have those motors in every junkyard. and if they were, they wouldnt cost so much. i never said the h22 was hands down the best swap, i just said that its an option that a lot of people dont look at as hard as they should. the only civic that you can drop in a b series without a mount kit is the 92-95, so if you have a 96+ or 91 or older, you need to buy mounts just like someone gettin an h22. i said the h22 made a great daily driver motor. i understand its expensive to build. but a lot more people swap and either keep their motor stock or just do the bolt ons. no b series motor can touch the hp or torque of an h22 stock or with bolt ons except for the b18c5, and then you dont get the torque and its far more expensive. you dont need to do anything special to make the motor dependable, a stock motor is going to be more dependable than a modified one if you take care of it. i know people with the h22, and they spent no more than others that swapped in a b18c, and their cars are significantly faster and more fun to drive. to properly build a crvtec or lsvtec, you need to reinforce the bottom end just to make it as reliable and powerful as an h22 is out of the box, and you still have less displacement and less torque. if these were such great ideas, why didnt honda build them in the first place? honda engineers spent countless hours thinking of how to make some of the best motors out there, and they didnt build a b20vtec or lsvtec. crvtec is not cheaper than an h22. when you add the prices of a full swap of either a b16a or b18c, a b20 longblock, aftermarket pistons, rods and sleeves, and the machine work necessary to adapt the block and head for work together, you have a lot of extra costs. to do it half assed, you might, and i stress might be able to make it cheaper to do b20vtec than an h22a, but then you have an unreliable motor. do it right, and your looking at a lot more money. h22a doesnt just look good on paper, it works in real life too.
B-series VS H-series
- Thread starter [SpoonSports]b18c5
- Start date
well, those prices are not hooked up those are what anyone who knows how to use a phone or the internet can find, just takes time and patience. I understand your point on the H series motors for people who do not want to go hard. But honestly why in the hell would you do a swap as intinsive as a H22 into a civic and then just do i/he
As far as H22 black/red/blue tops in a junkyard, I find them as much as I can b16a from 99Si or any of the b18 swapped into some civic some moron has crashed into something street racing in, and you of course forgot about the non vtec motors that most people before they knew better would just give away. You can find wrecked 2g base model tegs a dime a dozen, I have bought 3 of them for a G a peice for the whole car with little or no body damage. As far as engine reliablitity from a swap, for the prices you listed you were looking at turn key warantee motors only which meant you really have no realiability, a fully insured and waranteed H22 cost much more than the price you talked about. Once again there is a reason most people pick the B series motors. If you are talking about track cars I say SURE go for the H22 swap, turbo the thing and run it till you can not run it anymore, the increased displacement and the fact that you have no limits as well as the fact that if you have a drag car you are spending money anyway.
The h22 in a street car is honestly more motor than most people want to or can deal with. Most people go with b16a swaps and if you pay more than 12-2500 for anything that has 16a in it then you have payed to much. Honestly I never suggest people get this motor, for the price of this 1.6 you could have had a 1.8 that on paper makes less peak hp but makes way more torque and usable power under the curve for the most common racing which is street lights. If you want a track car only get the b16 and tune it to be peaky but if you want to win on the streets then get the b18a/b. Second most common vtec swap is the b18c1 from the gs-r, this motor does in fact cost more than the H22 usually and makes less hp, true but once again parts and help on this motor are more readily available than the H. Hardly anyone does a B16b or B18c5 swap into a civic... why? 1The motors cost way to much for what they do, hell ALL these honda motors are like this. Even for the price of your beloved h22 i can get motors that make way more hp and for the price of the c5 I can buy 2 2jzgte or a rb26dett. In all honestly doing a honda swap is humorous to people to drive non hondas seen as a waste of money which brings me to the next point.
Honda did not build the LS or CRvtecs for the reason that HONDA IS NOT A REAL PERFORMANCE COMPANY. Honda even when engineering "performance" motors fails in comparison to companies like Toyota/Nissan/Subaru. Their motors are increadibly limited, the F20c in the S2k is the most efficient 4cyl in the world, to bad when super charged with a professional driver, rising rate fule pressure regulator, and slicks the damn car could not break 13 car cost what 39k?, and the NSX is only good for closed track racing and these are Honda "super cars"? Hondas are meant to go from point A to point B as safely, quietly and efficiently as possible. You refute your own point when you talk about turbos, if honda meant for there to be a turbo on the car why didn't they put one on it (think about your argument before you make a comment, this is how you win debates) I no longer say the word Honda Compact Sports Car because it is an oxymoron. Not to insult the members of this post or fellow honda owners as I love all my hondas (none stand a chance against my nissan or toyotas and would be s**t on by my mazda upon completion in the streetable catagory) Hondas are great beginer cars and the H swap needs someone who knows a bit more than most of the people who are reading this. The H does in fact make more torque and hp than alot of the motors in the B series GREAT but they are still not really the optimal choice for most of the people who post here. You have not taken into account the mentality, driving habits, price range, help considerations, available parts and info as well as the level of mechanical inclination when talking about this. Hands down the best motor for most civic owners is a Non vtec b18 turbo this has been proven over and over again in the streets and on the tracks. This swap is relatively cheap and can put out just as much power and torque as your H22 even with the displacement differances. After all you are STILL turboing a high compression motor which is what I like to call "pissing in the wind". If you want to get a swap done and leave it alone then yeah i guess you are right even though you will still pay more for a h22 into a civic than a B18a/b you will have more hp and torque to begin with. When you start tuning the motor your H22 will limit you because of cost and safety issues. I guess this is where we meet in the middle man, you make valid points within certain confines but all in all the B still has shown its superiority when in the right hands to the H. the H is an elite motor that those who know better usually do not waste time on, when you get to the level where you would be able to competently tune a H to be a good car for streets then most people have moved on to something like a 4agze powered AE86 or Mr-2 or a sr20det powered 240sx after all your H22 does cost 2-3 times as much as those motors and has way less potential. I have bought and swapped a Sr20 into a S13 for the price of buying a H22 WITHOUT mounting it in the car without my hook ups. . I sometimes find it hard to sleep at night because of the prices of these honda swaps I should be ashamed of myself but supply and demand make it the way it is, there is no reason ANY of these Honda motors should cost as much as they do. Tomorrow I will put up some prices of all the stuff talked about here retail so prices can be seen, i will also put some dyno charts up, feel free to help out at least people will be able to better understand what we are talking about and that is what it is all about, helping everyone!
As far as H22 black/red/blue tops in a junkyard, I find them as much as I can b16a from 99Si or any of the b18 swapped into some civic some moron has crashed into something street racing in, and you of course forgot about the non vtec motors that most people before they knew better would just give away. You can find wrecked 2g base model tegs a dime a dozen, I have bought 3 of them for a G a peice for the whole car with little or no body damage. As far as engine reliablitity from a swap, for the prices you listed you were looking at turn key warantee motors only which meant you really have no realiability, a fully insured and waranteed H22 cost much more than the price you talked about. Once again there is a reason most people pick the B series motors. If you are talking about track cars I say SURE go for the H22 swap, turbo the thing and run it till you can not run it anymore, the increased displacement and the fact that you have no limits as well as the fact that if you have a drag car you are spending money anyway.
The h22 in a street car is honestly more motor than most people want to or can deal with. Most people go with b16a swaps and if you pay more than 12-2500 for anything that has 16a in it then you have payed to much. Honestly I never suggest people get this motor, for the price of this 1.6 you could have had a 1.8 that on paper makes less peak hp but makes way more torque and usable power under the curve for the most common racing which is street lights. If you want a track car only get the b16 and tune it to be peaky but if you want to win on the streets then get the b18a/b. Second most common vtec swap is the b18c1 from the gs-r, this motor does in fact cost more than the H22 usually and makes less hp, true but once again parts and help on this motor are more readily available than the H. Hardly anyone does a B16b or B18c5 swap into a civic... why? 1The motors cost way to much for what they do, hell ALL these honda motors are like this. Even for the price of your beloved h22 i can get motors that make way more hp and for the price of the c5 I can buy 2 2jzgte or a rb26dett. In all honestly doing a honda swap is humorous to people to drive non hondas seen as a waste of money which brings me to the next point.
Honda did not build the LS or CRvtecs for the reason that HONDA IS NOT A REAL PERFORMANCE COMPANY. Honda even when engineering "performance" motors fails in comparison to companies like Toyota/Nissan/Subaru. Their motors are increadibly limited, the F20c in the S2k is the most efficient 4cyl in the world, to bad when super charged with a professional driver, rising rate fule pressure regulator, and slicks the damn car could not break 13 car cost what 39k?, and the NSX is only good for closed track racing and these are Honda "super cars"? Hondas are meant to go from point A to point B as safely, quietly and efficiently as possible. You refute your own point when you talk about turbos, if honda meant for there to be a turbo on the car why didn't they put one on it (think about your argument before you make a comment, this is how you win debates) I no longer say the word Honda Compact Sports Car because it is an oxymoron. Not to insult the members of this post or fellow honda owners as I love all my hondas (none stand a chance against my nissan or toyotas and would be s**t on by my mazda upon completion in the streetable catagory) Hondas are great beginer cars and the H swap needs someone who knows a bit more than most of the people who are reading this. The H does in fact make more torque and hp than alot of the motors in the B series GREAT but they are still not really the optimal choice for most of the people who post here. You have not taken into account the mentality, driving habits, price range, help considerations, available parts and info as well as the level of mechanical inclination when talking about this. Hands down the best motor for most civic owners is a Non vtec b18 turbo this has been proven over and over again in the streets and on the tracks. This swap is relatively cheap and can put out just as much power and torque as your H22 even with the displacement differances. After all you are STILL turboing a high compression motor which is what I like to call "pissing in the wind". If you want to get a swap done and leave it alone then yeah i guess you are right even though you will still pay more for a h22 into a civic than a B18a/b you will have more hp and torque to begin with. When you start tuning the motor your H22 will limit you because of cost and safety issues. I guess this is where we meet in the middle man, you make valid points within certain confines but all in all the B still has shown its superiority when in the right hands to the H. the H is an elite motor that those who know better usually do not waste time on, when you get to the level where you would be able to competently tune a H to be a good car for streets then most people have moved on to something like a 4agze powered AE86 or Mr-2 or a sr20det powered 240sx after all your H22 does cost 2-3 times as much as those motors and has way less potential. I have bought and swapped a Sr20 into a S13 for the price of buying a H22 WITHOUT mounting it in the car without my hook ups. . I sometimes find it hard to sleep at night because of the prices of these honda swaps I should be ashamed of myself but supply and demand make it the way it is, there is no reason ANY of these Honda motors should cost as much as they do. Tomorrow I will put up some prices of all the stuff talked about here retail so prices can be seen, i will also put some dyno charts up, feel free to help out at least people will be able to better understand what we are talking about and that is what it is all about, helping everyone!
I will start with prices of what is fair for motors as listed
d16 (zc)-
1st gen 130hp 1.6L
motor 545
full swap 795
shipping somwhere around 200 or less
axles from car price in the 100-300 range
mounting can be done a number of ways on this one
very cheap swap
2nd gen 135hp 1.6L
motor 600
full swap 950
b16a dohc vtec 1.6
motor 100
full swap 1400
shipping int he 200 range
swaps into eg has to have mount for varios civics from 449-649
paying someone to put it in the car or wire the ecu or the time you spend yourself is a cost which is variable
b16a2
motor 1000
full swap 2700
shippign again in the 200 range
same price and consideration for mounting etc
b16a3
swap 3000 or so
shipping in the 200
mounting the same
b16b- 170hp
swap 4500
shipping and mounting the same
b18a/b 130/134/140 depending on year
motor 850
full swap 1200
same
b18c1 -170hp
swap 3300
b18c5- 190-200 depending on year and origin
swap 5000
b20
motor- 850
swap 1200-1500 range
h22a (black top) 190-200 depending on gen and origin
motor 1150
swap 2250
shipping 300 or so
hybrid axles 150-300 (accord/integra)
mounts 649 or so for all gen that it will work on
someone mounting this motor for you will probably charge a bit more because of more intensive wiring, heavier motor and the dificulties found there in.
h22 (red and blue top from Type S and SiR) 200-220 depending on gen and origin
motor 2000
swap 3500
shipping 300 or more depending on the motor you picked
same price for moutning.
so you have bseries which first of all if you have EG you can drop off a few hundred in the first place, H series mounts cost more than swapping in any B series into any chasis civic except the AF chasis cars. B18a/b full swap with a turbo running about 7-10 pounds cost as much as a H swap and will put out as much power. A H turbo is not as easy to make power on as a low compression B series this is basic physics of trying to cram more air into less space. All these prices are from www. monkeymotorsports.com for motors insured shipping with wrantee. Tomorrow i will have prices of tuning each motor, this is not to prove my point but just to let people know there are alternative, the h IS a good alternative to alot of motors, i would do it before a B18c1 or c5 swap in a minuit at my level of understanding, so you my friend are definitely right there and so i give you your props.
d16 (zc)-
1st gen 130hp 1.6L
motor 545
full swap 795
shipping somwhere around 200 or less
axles from car price in the 100-300 range
mounting can be done a number of ways on this one
very cheap swap
2nd gen 135hp 1.6L
motor 600
full swap 950
b16a dohc vtec 1.6
motor 100
full swap 1400
shipping int he 200 range
swaps into eg has to have mount for varios civics from 449-649
paying someone to put it in the car or wire the ecu or the time you spend yourself is a cost which is variable
b16a2
motor 1000
full swap 2700
shippign again in the 200 range
same price and consideration for mounting etc
b16a3
swap 3000 or so
shipping in the 200
mounting the same
b16b- 170hp
swap 4500
shipping and mounting the same
b18a/b 130/134/140 depending on year
motor 850
full swap 1200
same
b18c1 -170hp
swap 3300
b18c5- 190-200 depending on year and origin
swap 5000
b20
motor- 850
swap 1200-1500 range
h22a (black top) 190-200 depending on gen and origin
motor 1150
swap 2250
shipping 300 or so
hybrid axles 150-300 (accord/integra)
mounts 649 or so for all gen that it will work on
someone mounting this motor for you will probably charge a bit more because of more intensive wiring, heavier motor and the dificulties found there in.
h22 (red and blue top from Type S and SiR) 200-220 depending on gen and origin
motor 2000
swap 3500
shipping 300 or more depending on the motor you picked
same price for moutning.
so you have bseries which first of all if you have EG you can drop off a few hundred in the first place, H series mounts cost more than swapping in any B series into any chasis civic except the AF chasis cars. B18a/b full swap with a turbo running about 7-10 pounds cost as much as a H swap and will put out as much power. A H turbo is not as easy to make power on as a low compression B series this is basic physics of trying to cram more air into less space. All these prices are from www. monkeymotorsports.com for motors insured shipping with wrantee. Tomorrow i will have prices of tuning each motor, this is not to prove my point but just to let people know there are alternative, the h IS a good alternative to alot of motors, i would do it before a B18c1 or c5 swap in a minuit at my level of understanding, so you my friend are definitely right there and so i give you your props.
that web page i put up is having a sale on both the black top H22 and the b18c5 if anyone was looking for a motor you should inquire at their adress
inquiry@monkeymotorsports.com
inquiry@monkeymotorsports.com
I agree with most of your points black dragon and i appreciate you taking time to type those huge ass paragraphs. I was wondering what your take is on the k-series engines and if it's worth investing the massive amounts of $$$ to swap those in the EP chasis.
the b18c5 is usually a waste of money because you have to buy it and leave the internals stock..... (otherwise you should get a b18c1 and build the internals). on the other hand, i have personally seen a stock b18c5 in a 92-95 hatch with full interior run consistent low 13's................ go figure.
i would recommend you get yourself a nice b16, 160 hp out of the box, and throw a turbo on it...... low 13's, maybe high-12's, and plenty of room to improve down the road....... the motor should be ~$2200, and the turbo ~$2500. that's about the cost of a b18c5 motor.
stay away from the h22
i would recommend you get yourself a nice b16, 160 hp out of the box, and throw a turbo on it...... low 13's, maybe high-12's, and plenty of room to improve down the road....... the motor should be ~$2200, and the turbo ~$2500. that's about the cost of a b18c5 motor.
stay away from the h22
what makes you think he is the only one that knows what he is talking about....? i could sit here and write a paper on the topic too, but he has already done so. im only stating a fact and then following with my personal preference...... i'm not street racer... i keep it on the strip and make occasional romps on the highway... thus, a turbo is perfect for my setup, and i intend to be pushing out over 350hp at the wheels before im through.
4 cylinder honda motors are meant to be peaky... that's how they make power. front wheel drive cars need power very high in the top end so they can catch a rear driven, off-the-line monster. everyone is entitled to their own theories, but the fastest highway cars will always be turbo powered or have large displacement.
and honda makes some of the most impressive f1 motors in the world..... i realize b-series motors aren't f1 motors, but where do you think honda gets its design philosophy from? reliable, high-revving, 100+ hp/liter....... that IS performance.
4 cylinder honda motors are meant to be peaky... that's how they make power. front wheel drive cars need power very high in the top end so they can catch a rear driven, off-the-line monster. everyone is entitled to their own theories, but the fastest highway cars will always be turbo powered or have large displacement.
and honda makes some of the most impressive f1 motors in the world..... i realize b-series motors aren't f1 motors, but where do you think honda gets its design philosophy from? reliable, high-revving, 100+ hp/liter....... that IS performance.
i have to say that is a VERY weak argument against turbos............. it doesn't matter what honda thinks about turbos..... they don't put crazy bodykits on their cars, or flashy 18" rims, or nitrous, or build frankenstein motors......... so why do individuals do these things? because they want to and they have the right.... there is a lot of untapped potential in b-series motors. honda didn't tune them to the hilt because honda holds its cars to the ulev standard to boost sales. also, not every civic/integra is sold to a street-racer type.... some of these cars are actually bought by people who use them as economy cars............
and you call turboing a high-compression motor "pissing in the wind"........ when you turbo a motor you effectively raise the compression anyway. thus, a low-compression motor at high boost can make the same power as a high-compression motor at low boost.... the big difference is off-boost. you need the high-compression to get the car moving around when the turbo isn't spooled..... this helps minimize the effect of lag. not to mention the lower boost will have the turbo spooling quicker. it's a better idea to keep the compression up and keep the boost low.
The problem with a high compression motor and boost is that the fuel air mixture has a tendency to self ignite. For a street car, stock compression and low boost is ok. It gives a good mix of driveability and power, but on something a little more than a street car, a lower compression motor with high boost will usually be the better choice. Lower RPM performance might suffer a little, but how much time will you spend in the lower RPM range at the track. Almost none. It all depends on what you want to do with the car.
i partially agree, but i should elucidate........ by "high compression" i meant something like 9.5:1 or even 10:1, which is a little lower than the stock 10.2:1 cr in my motor.......... that is as opposed to low compression which would be 8:1 or 8.5:1..........
i didn't mean one should increase the cr higher than stock, as with an n/a car
i didn't mean one should increase the cr higher than stock, as with an n/a car
If you go with too low a compression ratio before you put the turbo on your car...its not going anywhere. Even when you DO put the turbo kit on, you will have to boost pretty high. Its all about getting your compression ratio right and sizing the turbo to your motor.