H22A vs B18C5 WTF???

[DAF]

Azn anywawwwn:

H22A= speesho moto mount and wots o wuk
B18C5= pwug n pwaaaay

So a pubic education and one misspelled word yields me butchered insult? Wow, your bored.

Back on topic. The H22as are nice little engines, specially since they came out with the H2B conversion kit so you can bold a B series tranny on the H22a block. That was one of the H series faults. The H22 does require a bit of work though, and if you have never done a swap before, I do not recommend you doing this yourself. A B series swap is very straight forward. I say Plug and Pray because you pray you hooked everything up right, lol.

Or you could be a b***h and take it to a shop.

 

[DAF]

what about aftermarket sleeves?

If your ganna boost, I would recommend it. The H22 has very thin walls, and is an aluminum engine if I am not mistaken.

 

[PhntmSk8r]

simple answer.

c5 is the price it is kuz of threads like this.

Everyone bitches about how 'the h22 is too heavy, and creates too much understeer'

when IMO, those people have NO clue what they're talking about. Just spreading honda-tech rumors. My h22 96 ex, 2dr coupe will out corner my buddies 96 ex 2dr coupe, with the stock d16 in it, and similar suspension mods. I dont see wtf people are bitching about, honestly.

 

[12.8:1 Ls/vtec]

An h22 is much easier to pull power out of b/c it is a larger honda motor. I would much rather put an h22 in my car than waste my money on a type R. If I bought a type R, my motor that I have now that is a built Ls/vtec would smoke its expensive type R ass. You pay so much and get so little in return. H22's aren't that hard to put in other than their massive girth, not weight. It is a really tight fit all across the engine bay.
Say you have an h22 w/ 200 hp and 156 tq. &
a type R w/ roughly 200 hp and 134 tq.

The H22 has a weaker(in ratios) transmission than the type R. You can get 228 whp out of an h22 w/ intake, header, s3 cams, exhaust, 11.5:1 cr, intake manifold and hondata. You can't do that w/ a type R, especially w/ the torque that the H is gonna make.

H23 vtecs are weaker than the h22's by the way. The only thing they are good for is blowing up. They almost always pump too much oil to the head and don't keep enough down low for the cylinders.

 

[GoDave!]

DAF did you really just say pubic education

If so then that s**t is hilarious wether you meant to or not.

To conclude the thread:

H22A >

 

[DetainedCivic]

no offense but that might even be worse. the h23 doesnt have the oil squirters that the h22 has. youd be starving the block of the oil it needs especially at the higher revs. otherwise i think it would be great. or you could get a h23vtec from europe but it doesnt rev as high as the h22 because of the lack of the oil squirters.

I hope you are not serious? Oil squirters shot oil up in to the piston cyclinder. They aren't that big of a deal if you don't have them. Install a better oil pump and you are good to go. I just finished building a ls/vtec set up that holds 12.2:1 compression and the LS block doesn't have oil squirters. But I did install a itr oil pump.

You see ls blocks hold 12-14psi all day on a boosted setup with no problems with oil.

And when did a higher rev limiter on a motor justify which one is better?

 

[Billy.]

some of us need to quit with the insults and name calling before the thread gets closed and this debate gets continued to round #42,312 another day. we should be debating the facts of the motors to compare/contrast, not what kind of education someone has, pubic or not.

 

[OLOCK]

I hope you are not serious? Oil squirters shot oil up in to the piston cyclinder. They aren't that big of a deal if you don't have them. Install a better oil pump and you are good to go. I just finished building a ls/vtec set up that holds 12.2:1 compression and the LS block doesn't have oil squirters. But I did install a itr oil pump.

You see ls blocks hold 12-14psi all day on a boosted setup with no problems with oil.

And when did a higher rev limiter on a motor justify which one is better?

of course your steel sleeve b series doesnt need the amount of oil that the aluminum h22 sleeve is goin to need. im not doubting your bseries knowledge or anything like that, im just talking about the hseries and what i know from experience. the aluminum sleeve is actually coated with a carbon matrix, when that carbon matrix gets worn down you see scaring all up and down the cylinder walls. honda tuning even did an article about how to build up the h22 with the aluminum sleeves. and in that article you can see the result of the carbon matrix being worn down, which then lead to the aluminum sleeve being worn down also. thats why people sleeve the block, the aluminum is just not that strong. just like 12.8:1 Ls/vtec said, "H23 vtecs are weaker than the h22's by the way. The only thing they are good for is blowing up. They almost always pump too much oil to the head and don't keep enough down low for the cylinders." thats because the the h23 vtec or non vtec dont have the oil squirters and REQUIRE a lower rev limit because there is no oil squirters and at higher rpms the engine speed increases and starves the block of the oil that is needed. i mean there has to be a reason why the h23 vtec didnt come with the oil squirters AND cant be reved as high as the h22. im not being a d**k, the OP asked about the plus's and minus's of each engine and im just tryin to give him that. i have had a few h22's and h23's and i know from first hand experience with both of them. if you dont want to believe me then fine, but you can ask go dave and he'll even back me up on my experiences with the hseries.

 

[DAF]

DAF did you really just say pubic education

If so then that s**t is hilarious wether you meant to or not.

To conclude the thread:

H22A >

This reminds me why I dont like people my own age

Once more, back on topic.


This all boils down to how much money and work you want to put in to it. Over all, assuming you do your own work, the H22a is going to yeild you the best power per value, and was actually my first choice for an engine for my civic, but I opeted out for a CRVtec. But it is alot of work. The B will be a bit pricier, but is very easy swap. If your going to take it to a shop though, just go with the H22a.

Also, its worth looking in to the H2B conversion plate thing I was talking about. They have an artical about it in the new Dsport mag.

 

[DetainedCivic]

of course your steel sleeve b series doesnt need the amount of oil that the aluminum h22 sleeve is goin to need. im not doubting your bseries knowledge or anything like that, im just talking about the hseries and what i know from experience. the aluminum sleeve is actually coated with a carbon matrix, when that carbon matrix gets worn down you see scaring all up and down the cylinder walls. honda tuning even did an article about how to build up the h22 with the aluminum sleeves. and in that article you can see the result of the carbon matrix being worn down, which then lead to the aluminum sleeve being worn down also. thats why people sleeve the block, the aluminum is just not that strong. just like 12.8:1 Ls/vtec said, "H23 vtecs are weaker than the h22's by the way. The only thing they are good for is blowing up. They almost always pump too much oil to the head and don't keep enough down low for the cylinders." thats because the the h23 vtec or non vtec dont have the oil squirters and REQUIRE a lower rev limit because there is no oil squirters and at higher rpms the engine speed increases and starves the block of the oil that is needed. i mean there has to be a reason why the h23 vtec didnt come with the oil squirters AND cant be reved as high as the h22. im not being a d**k, the OP asked about the plus's and minus's of each engine and im just tryin to give him that. i have had a few h22's and h23's and i know from first hand experience with both of them. if you dont want to believe me then fine, but you can ask go dave and he'll even back me up on my experiences with the hseries.

Woo woo I didn't ask for a paper on this I was just stating what I have seen in person with friends that have built h22's and h23/vtec. They are strong motors from what I seen with the boost people have pushed to them and the shots of nitrous I have seen people run through them
Personally I would stay away from H-series because parts are more expensive and harder to fine.
You build a b-series block, blow it up then jump on the internet and find another block for a couple hundred. Which seems a lot better then any H22.
Personally if you want more displacement and torque the go with a K24 and call it a day. But then again if we are doing bang for the buck a nice ls/vtec setup b18c1 setup or even LS will make you happy and for those that will cry even a B16 will be ok to

 

[100Percen%]

and the hydraulic tensioner can be swaped out for a h23 or f22 manual tensioner. just my opinions.

where could i find it?

You build a b-series block, blow it up then jump on the internet and find another block for a couple hundred. Personally if you want more displacement and torque the go with a K24 and call it a day. But then again if we are doing bang for the buck a nice ls/vtec setup b18c1 setup or even LS will make you happy and for those that will cry even a B16 will be ok to

I don't know where you've been looking but b18c5 blocks for a couple hundred? I don't think you were talking about that motor specifically, just b-series blocks in general, but that's the focus of the thread. i didn't wanna make the debate even worse by bringing k-series into the equation, but don't they have a problem with piston rings or oil seals or something? besides being more expensive than the C5 and around the same power and displacement of a JDM H22A. So if someone wants to comment on that be my guest, but really let's focus on the two motors in the OP. There haven't been any ITR advocates making their points known, but when it boils down to it based on the numbers (including cost) the H22A is seeming like the better choice. Accept I don't want to give up A/C or P/S. Is there any way around it? I'd rather buy a prelude if that's what it takes. Also, there's the extra cost of buying the H2B thing and a b-series tranny. Would that be needed right away or can it wait for a while, like until i'm ready to boost? And how expensive would it be and where would i even get them?

 

[OLOCK]

for the h23 or f22 manual tensioner swap i copied and pasted from cb7tuner.com they have alot of useful h22 info. here you go.

"l The H23A Tensioner conversion........

Alright well this is basically a quick how-to of what's need to ditch your H22A's auto tensioner and swap to the H23A's manual tensioner. This cost in total about $140 to do which is a little more money then a new auto tensioner cost. The advantages are this tensioner is more reliable and there is no special tool required.

Parts REQUIRED are:

13404-PT0-004 - balancer belt adjuster
14510-PT0-004 - timing belt adjuster
14516-PT2-000 - adjuster spring
90014-P14-A00 - adjuster base bolt
90015-PT0-000 - adjuster spring bolt
90016-PT0-000 - adjuster bolt
90140-P14-A00 - 11mm washer
14521-P14-A00 - adjuster plate

All the other parts required can be reused from your H22A. I also changed however the fallowing three parts just to be anal.

90501-MB7-610 - washer
90216-P0A-000 - nut
90401-PT0-000 - rubber o-ring

Now I'm not going to go in detail about how to remove the timing belts and all that because if you don't know how to do that you shouldn't be doing this.


That's all folks, The springs and actual tensioners are pretty self explanitory. Make sure you order all these parts prior to doing this! Don't take apart your engine and expect this stuff to be in stock at your local dealer. They will most likely have to order most of it and most will be back ordered.

Good luck and may the force be with you"

p.s. there is really no way to keep your a/c or powersteering so if your planning on putting this into a civic your better off with a b series. you could buy a prelude or an accord and swap the h22 into one of those if you really want to keep the a/c and p/s.

 

[DetainedCivic]

where could i find it?



I don't know where you've been looking but b18c5 blocks for a couple hundred? I don't think you were talking about that motor specifically, just b-series blocks in general, but that's the focus of the thread. i didn't wanna make the debate even worse by bringing k-series into the equation, but don't they have a problem with piston rings or oil seals or something? besides being more expensive than the C5 and around the same power and displacement of a JDM H22A. So if someone wants to comment on that be my guest, but really let's focus on the two motors in the OP. There haven't been any ITR advocates making their points known, but when it boils down to it based on the numbers (including cost) the H22A is seeming like the better choice. Accept I don't want to give up A/C or P/S. Is there any way around it? I'd rather buy a prelude if that's what it takes. Also, there's the extra cost of buying the H2B thing and a b-series tranny. Would that be needed right away or can it wait for a while, like until i'm ready to boost? And how expensive would it be and where would i even get them?

I never said a b18c5 block, I said find a b series block for cheaper then any h22 block.

Side note:
B18c5 are over priced..PERIOD. Yes very good motors and I have drove many and I have seen many run. No stock b18c5 can hang with my setup though and mine didn't cost nearly as much as a b18c5 and mine was freshly rebuilt. By me of course so that would be the only downfall for someone that did not know how to build a motor, you would have to get someone to do it for you.

But I have a ls/vtec setup with b18b bottom end thats been honed, hot tanked. New OEM Honda parts in the bottom end with p30 pistons on ls rods.
I have a b16a2 head with gsr cams
I have a b16a2 tranny (wish it had lsd, only downfall here)
then I have your typical bolt ons, with exedy stage 1 clutch, header, intake, exhaust.

12.2:1 compression....no itr or H22 with same boltons can match me. I spent less on this swap then I would have with a itr swap. ITR swap is going to cost more then a h22 swap.

 

[GoDave!]

of course your steel sleeve b series doesnt need the amount of oil that the aluminum h22 sleeve is goin to need. im not doubting your bseries knowledge or anything like that, im just talking about the hseries and what i know from experience. the aluminum sleeve is actually coated with a carbon matrix, when that carbon matrix gets worn down you see scaring all up and down the cylinder walls. honda tuning even did an article about how to build up the h22 with the aluminum sleeves. and in that article you can see the result of the carbon matrix being worn down, which then lead to the aluminum sleeve being worn down also. thats why people sleeve the block, the aluminum is just not that strong. just like 12.8:1 Ls/vtec said, "H23 vtecs are weaker than the h22's by the way. The only thing they are good for is blowing up. They almost always pump too much oil to the head and don't keep enough down low for the cylinders." thats because the the h23 vtec or non vtec dont have the oil squirters and REQUIRE a lower rev limit because there is no oil squirters and at higher rpms the engine speed increases and starves the block of the oil that is needed. i mean there has to be a reason why the h23 vtec didnt come with the oil squirters AND cant be reved as high as the h22. im not being a d**k, the OP asked about the plus's and minus's of each engine and im just tryin to give him that. i have had a few h22's and h23's and i know from first hand experience with both of them. if you dont want to believe me then fine, but you can ask go dave and he'll even back me up on my experiences with the hseries.

I can and will vouch for this kid, he knows his stuff...

This reminds me why I dont like people my own age.

and yes I was bored and enjoyed a laugh...thanks! I am just playing with you by the way don't be such a girl

 

[100Percen%]

Great info OLOCK, thanks. So if i can't keep A/C at least then i'll definately be using a prelude shell for this swap.

 

[OLOCK]

I never said a b18c5 block, I said find a b series block for cheaper then any h22 block.

Side note:
B18c5 are over priced..PERIOD. Yes very good motors and I have drove many and I have seen many run. No stock b18c5 can hang with my setup though and mine didn't cost nearly as much as a b18c5 and mine was freshly rebuilt. By me of course so that would be the only downfall for someone that did not know how to build a motor, you would have to get someone to do it for you.

But I have a ls/vtec setup with b18b bottom end thats been honed, hot tanked. New OEM Honda parts in the bottom end with p30 pistons on ls rods.
I have a b16a2 head with gsr cams
I have a b16a2 tranny (wish it had lsd, only downfall here)
then I have your typical bolt ons, with exedy stage 1 clutch, header, intake, exhaust.

12.2:1 compression....no itr or H22 with same boltons can match me. I spent less on this swap then I would have with a itr swap. ITR swap is going to cost more then a h22 swap.

what kind of power and torque are you making to the wheels? just curious. i have a customer that has pretty much the exact same setup in a crx, only he has a full sleeved block with je rods, crank, type r pistons and the head is getting worked on right now. (well thats what he claims that he has)

 

[OLOCK]

Great info OLOCK, thanks. So if i can't keep A/C at least then i'll definately be using a prelude shell for this swap.

no problem man, if you have any other questioned just pm me.

 

[Hecz]

So looking at these specs (http://www.streettuners.com/curve/engine/engine_specs.html#integra) comparing the most powerful H22A (99-01 H22A2 5G - BB6 2157 10.0 : 1 200 @
7000 rpm 156 lb/ft@
5250 rpm USA/97 + type S H22A 5G - BB 2157 11.0 : 1 220 @
7200 rpm 163 lb/ft @
6500 rpm Japan) and the most powerful B18C5 (97-98
2000 type R B18C5 3G - DC 1797 10.6 : 1 195 @
8000 rpm 130 lb/ft @
7500 rpm USA/95-00 type R B18C5 3G - DC 1797 11.0 : 1 197 @
8000 rpm 134 lb/ft @
7500 rpm Japan) and comparing prices for available swap packages for the two, why is the integra motor so great and so popular anyway? i'm not here to bash the b-series fans or hype up the h-series guys, and please forgive me if this ends up being another pointless, should-have-never-been-created threads with all the bias and stupid argues. i was just wondering about the strengths and weaknesses of the two motors because i was seriously considering a B18C5 swap, but after looking at the numbers (which somehow i had never noticed before now) it seems like the H22A would be so much of a better choice that the B18C5 swap seems pointless. So if i can get some mature posts from some real swap experiences and knowledge to shed some light on a topic that i'm sure is of heavy debate then that would be greatly appreciated. If not and this thread quickly goes to hell in a handbag, mods don't hesitate to close it out. Thanks everyone in advance.

I OWN A H22.. OUR OPINIONS DONT MATTER, EVERYONE HAS DIFFRENT GOALS. . BOTH ENGINES ARE GREAT AND BOTH CAN BUILT NA, SUPERCHARGED, OR TURBO CHARGED. MONEY WILL ALWAYS BE A FACTOR IN ANYWAY YOU GO, TUNNING IS EXPENSIVE. YOU ALSO HAVE TO LEARN TO MAKE SACRAFICES.

 

[DetainedCivic]

what kind of power and torque are you making to the wheels? just curious. i have a customer that has pretty much the exact same setup in a crx, only he has a full sleeved block with je rods, crank, type r pistons and the head is getting worked on right now. (well thats what he claims that he has)

Not sure yet, only have 40 miles on the build so far. Haven't had a chance to see what it puts down.

His car should put down pretty good numbers however p30 pistons give a higher compression then type-r pistons so not sure how his will run.

 

[h22_ek]

I think the h22 is faster. Some people pick the C5 because of the better tranny, and the h22 is a lot heavier. Plus I think (not for sure) that you have to do something with the motor mounts on the H22. Like move them over or something right? Correct me if im wrong.

the h22 isnt all that much heavier