Postnatal abortion.

vjf915

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It's quite a bit to read. I will not provide cliffs, so don't ask :lol:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9113394/Killing-babies-no-different-from-abortion-experts-say.html


The article, published in the Journal of Medical Ethics, says newborn babies are not “actual persons” and do not have a “moral right to life”. The academics also argue that parents should be able to have their baby killed if it turns out to be disabled when it is born.
The journal’s editor, Prof Julian Savulescu, director of the Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics, said the article's authors had received death threats since publishing the article. He said those who made abusive and threatening posts about the study were “fanatics opposed to the very values of a liberal society”.
The article, entitled “After-birth abortion: Why should the baby live?”, was written by two of Prof Savulescu’s former associates, Alberto Giubilini and Francesca Minerva.
They argued: “The moral status of an infant is equivalent to that of a fetus in the sense that both lack those properties that justify the attribution of a right to life to an individual.”
Rather than being “actual persons”, newborns were “potential persons”. They explained: “Both a fetus and a newborn certainly are human beings and potential persons, but neither is a ‘person’ in the sense of ‘subject of a moral right to life’.
“We take ‘person’ to mean an individual who is capable of attributing to her own existence some (at least) basic value such that being deprived of this existence represents a loss to her.”
As such they argued it was “not possible to damage a newborn by preventing her from developing the potentiality to become a person in the morally relevant sense”.
The authors therefore concluded that “what we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled”.
They also argued that parents should be able to have the baby killed if it turned out to be disabled without their knowing before birth, for example citing that “only the 64 per cent of Down’s syndrome cases” in Europe are diagnosed by prenatal testing.
Once such children were born there was “no choice for the parents but to keep the child”, they wrote.
“To bring up such children might be an unbearable burden on the family and on society as a whole, when the state economically provides for their care.”
However, they did not argue that some baby killings were more justifiable than others – their fundamental point was that, morally, there was no difference to abortion as already practised.
They preferred to use the phrase “after-birth abortion” rather than “infanticide” to “emphasise that the moral status of the individual killed is comparable with that of a fetus”.
Both Minerva and Giubilini know Prof Savulescu through Oxford. Minerva was a research associate at the Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics until last June, when she moved to the Centre for Applied Philosophy and Public Ethics at Melbourne University.
Giubilini, a former visiting student at Cambridge University, gave a talk in January at the Oxford Martin School – where Prof Savulescu is also a director – titled 'What is the problem with euthanasia?'
He too has gone on to Melbourne, although to the city’s Monash University. Prof Savulescu worked at both univerisities before moving to Oxford in 2002.
Defending the decision to publish in a British Medical Journal blog, Prof Savulescu, said that arguments in favour of killing newborns were “largely not new”.
What Minerva and Giubilini did was apply these arguments “in consideration of maternal and family interests”.
While accepting that many people would disagree with their arguments, he wrote: “The goal of the Journal of Medical Ethics is not to present the Truth or promote some one moral view. It is to present well reasoned argument based on widely accepted premises.”
Speaking to The Daily Telegraph, he added: “This “debate” has been an example of “witch ethics” - a group of people know who the witch is and seek to burn her. It is one of the most dangerous human tendencies we have. It leads to lynching and genocide. Rather than argue and engage, there is a drive is to silence and, in the extreme, kill, based on their own moral certainty. That is not the sort of society we should live in.”
He said the journal would consider publishing an article positing that, if there was no moral difference between abortion and killing newborns, then abortion too should be illegal.
Dr Trevor Stammers, director of medical ethics at St Mary's University College, said: "If a mother does smother her child with a blanket, we say 'it's doesn't matter, she can get another one,' is that what we want to happen?
"What these young colleagues are spelling out is what we would be the inevitable end point of a road that ethical philosophers in the States and Australia have all been treading for a long time and there is certainly nothing new."
Referring to the term "after-birth abortion", Dr Stammers added: "This is just verbal manipulation that is not philosophy. I might refer to abortion henceforth as antenatal infanticide."
 

vjf915

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Discuss.
 


Jeegz

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I couldnt read the whole thing. Thats too messed up. Why would you knowingly kill something youve created?
 

JohnS.

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I'm all for abortion. It's your body. If you're not ready to have a child or do not want a child, don't have one. Were you stupid in the first place to get pregnant if you didn't want to? Yes. But you'd be more stupid to have the baby only to give it up. Babies deserve to be loved by their own family. Not thrown away to be raised by someone else because they were a mistake or the mother didn't want the baby or the mother couldn't afford to have the baby. That's more wrong IMO.

When it comes to killing AFTER birth... That's questionable. I don't doubt that a disabled person can become a huge burden for a family. More money spent for special care and needs, etc. But killing AFTER birth seems wrong. But I do understand their argument and can see where they are coming from. Does that mean I'm for it? I'm honestly not sure.... Basically what it comes down to is what kind of morals and values people have. Being pro-choice doesn't make you a bad person. It just makes you different from people that aren't pro-choice.

This next statement is probably gonna make me sound like a d**k.... But people that take this stuff hella seriously need to take the stick out of their ass. It all comes down to personal choice.
 

JohnS.

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vjf915

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John, I agree with you to some extent. I think that prenatal abortion should be the choice of the parents. My issue comes with postnatal abortion. I mean we're talking about taking the life of a baby that's been born. It's out of the womb, breathing oxygen.

There was one thing I noticed several times in the article.
They also argued that parents should be able to have the baby killed if it turned out to be disabled without their knowing before birth
However, they did not argue that some baby killings were more justifiable than others
Defending the decision to publish in a British Medical Journal blog, Prof Savulescu, said that arguments in favour of killing newborns were “largely not new”.
He said the journal would consider publishing an article positing that, if there was no moral difference between abortion and killing newborns, then abortion too should be illegal.
The highlighted words show the difference between prenatal and postnatal abortions. With a postnatal abortion, you're not opting out of giving birth, you're killing a baby you've already given birth to.
 

Hecz

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Babies deserve to be loved by their own family. Not thrown away to be raised by someone else because they were a mistake or the mother didn't want the baby or the mother couldn't afford to have the baby. That's more wrong IMO.
dude, its not like their chucked away in the back of some truck and then taken to who knows where.

when a baby is taken from its biological mother on day 1... I don't think the baby will realize what has happen. Whoever adopts that child WILL love them, and they WILL become their family. The baby is in a family once the adoptions papers are signed. The word Family doesn't necessarily have to be the blood relatives. The baby doesn't need to be with its biological parents for it to be loved. the biological parents aren't the only ones that can love that baby. Many babys are adopted from 3rd world countries.
 

itsmycookie

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seriously this topic is never going to be resolved... make your own opinion on it and keep it to yourself.
I think cannibalism is just 100% f***ed up. Whether it's a baby or a full grown adult. I don't care how healthy that is. People do just fine living on normal food.
and nearly everyone would agree with you. as far as abortion goes though people have their own opinions. just like the war in iraq and most things in general.

even the big arguments like religion and politics are open for discussions. in other countries they will kill u for things like that because it's either one way or another. (if anyone wants to throw up i have a links available for such examples)

people should just agree to disagree and spend their time on something more productive.
 

JohnS.

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John, I agree with you to some extent. I think that prenatal abortion should be the choice of the parents. My issue comes with postnatal abortion. I mean we're talking about taking the life of a baby that's been born. It's out of the womb, breathing oxygen.

There was one thing I noticed several times in the article.





The highlighted words show the difference between prenatal and postnatal abortions. With a postnatal abortion, you're not opting out of giving birth, you're killing a baby you've already given birth to.
That's why I'm iffy on it. It's already born. I don't find joy in watching or hearing about a life being taken away. But like I said, I do understand where they are coming from when they say the baby does not have a moral right to life. I can't exactly put into words what I'm trying to say but I do see where they're coming from. But again, it doesn't mean I'm for it.

dude, its not like their chucked away in the back of some truck and then taken to who knows where.
I know. But again, we all have our own morals, values, and opinions. And that's what I believe.

people should just agree to disagree and spend their time on something more productive.
Word to that.

I was just posting to discuss and share my beliefs.
 

vjf915

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seriously this topic is never going to be resolved... make your own opinion on it and keep it to yourself.
So we shouldn't be allowed to discuss our opinions in a civil manner? If we didn't debate about moral issues, we wouldn't have laws, and we wouldn't have much to talk about. If you don't wish to partake in the discussion, you don't have to participate in this thread. It's easier to click the "back" button than to type out something and hit "submit reply". Just saying.
 

itsmycookie

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So we shouldn't be allowed to discuss our opinions in a civil manner? If we didn't debate about moral issues, we wouldn't have laws, and we wouldn't have much to talk about. If you don't wish to partake in the discussion, you don't have to participate in this thread. It's easier to click the "back" button than to type out something and hit "submit reply". Just saying.
so you've only got a problem once the baby is out of the woman? so say they aborted the day the delivery was suppose to happen. you'd be ok with leaving that up to the parents but a hour later if the baby was born you wouldn;t be ok with it?
 

JustJustin

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All abortions are murder, and therefore wrong in my opinion. What's the difference between a mother taking the life of her child in the womb as opposed to a child that has already been born? There isn't a difference. And I'd find it interesting to tell an adopted kid you think he or she should've been aborted, because they deserved to be loved by their own family and not a foster family.

A family is a group of people who love you, whether they're biological or not.

Also, why should a child be murdered for their parents mistake? So the parents screwed up and had the kid and didn't man up to raise it so then they screwed up again and had it killed. Awesome world we live in.

Lets also just forget that the fetus can feel the physical pain involved with having the abortion
 

JohnS.

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What's the difference between a mother taking the life of her child in the womb as opposed to a child that has already been born?
Depends how far along the baby is. If you just found out you're pregnant, I'm fine with abortion. If it's close to delivery or has been delivered, then I'd be iffy.
 

vjf915

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so you've only got a problem once the baby is out of the woman? so say they aborted the day the delivery was suppose to happen. you'd be ok with leaving that up to the parents but a hour later if the baby was born you wouldn;t be ok with it?
I understand where you're coming from. When you draw the line that close, with a separation of two hours, it seems foolish. Look at it from the other point of view though. If you don't draw the line at the point of the baby being born, where do you draw the line for murder? 3 months? 12 months? 5 years old? Parents are legally allowed to kill their children at ANY age? There needs to be SOME line drawn that differentiates between legally opting out of having a child, and murder. If you don't think that at birth is the proper place to draw the line, then where is?
 

crash!

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Ugh... this is so messed up but I see both sides. I am very pro choice- it's your life, you do what you want with it. But after birth... ehhh that's a little sketch.

Birth defects/retardation can be a huge burden on family and the person themselves. This post-birth abortion would prevent that (amazing that 64% of Down Syndrome cases are diagnosed after birth). But also I feel that maybe the reason for the birth defect should be addressed more (whether the mother was into drugs/alcohol during pregnancy, genetics...), however I know that there is only so much research and answers we can get so soon.

The reason I would think this is wrong is it could be an easy way out from a poor decision (i.e. Teen Mom) or it could be a "easy disposal" if the child is not perfect. Dr Trevor Stammers, director of medical ethics at St Mary's University College, said: "If a mother does smother her child with a blanket, we say 'it's doesn't matter, she can get another one,' is that what we want to happen? As long as it doesn't get to this point...

I have a little brother who is autistic. It has been hard on my family and harder for him to get along in this world which he does not understand. Yet he went from a serious case to a very minor case. He is graduating high school this year, just got his first job, and has friends that he hangs out with all the time. You can barely tell he is autistic except for his stuttering problem.
But you can never tell with birth defects. Sometimes they stay in the state that they are, get worse, or get better. My brother fortunately was the latter.
 

JustJustin

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Thats pretty messed up if we are now going to start killing any child with a defect.
 

joe7987

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I'm "pro-choice" myself, in other words, I'm ok with abortion happening - but not post-birth, or close to birth. I think abortion is fine before the central nervous system begins functioning. Heartbeat means nothing.

And a fetus doesn't experience pain until at LEAST 30 weeks (by current medical knowledge), which is well beyond the legal time length to abort (usually 12 weeks, but a maximum of 20 weeks in the U.S.).
 


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