I've recently noticed a lot of Civics with aftermarket lower arm bars, are they just as pointless as aftermarket lower control arms? I want to start suspension work soon, I figure bracing components would be a good start before ultimately dropping 700 for some coilovers. What bracing products are worth buying/better than OEM?
Bling or purposeful?
- Thread starter Modest Throttle
- Start date
I believe they are both bling. However, I really like the lower arm bar from beaks:
http://www.beaksproducts.com/STB_EK_Subframe_Tie_Bar.htm
I heard that bracing components are designed for serious track use instead of street use. But I think frame reinforcement is a must if using thicker than stock rear sway bars.
http://www.beaksproducts.com/STB_EK_Subframe_Tie_Bar.htm
I heard that bracing components are designed for serious track use instead of street use. But I think frame reinforcement is a must if using thicker than stock rear sway bars.
Yeah I was looking at that Beaks one too. I just dont know if it's worth it, I'd rather get a front tower bar >http://cms.skunk2.com/id/517/Black-Series-Strut-Tower-Bars/
lca's are bling...unless u have a seized bolt in it...then its just a stronger replacement, that's what im going through right now, i got my car half lowered because the rear shock bolt in the lca is seized to hell.... soo.. im gunna grab some skunks and do it right..
and that beaks bar is utterly useless unless you auto-x...but it looks wicked paired up with a polished ASR rear subframe..
and that beaks bar is utterly useless unless you auto-x...but it looks wicked paired up with a polished ASR rear subframe..
Good to know, thanks
I know aftermarket LCAs are bling. I was just wondering if aftermarket lower arm bars were just as pointless...sounds like they are. I'm pretty sure my current LCA set-up is still legit, I guess it wouldn't hurt to replace it though in the near future.
All these lower control arms out here are pointless to get, so are lower arm bars. just look at how they are. The only good ones are solid one piece designs like the ASR brace if you swap out for a larger diameter anti roll bar.
OP, bracing should be the last thing you should be doing, if you are serious about suspension work, start out with a good set of strut/springs/adjustable sleeves/full coils... etc.. whatever you want and then a good performance alignment, then fine tune with anti roll bars and bracing.
OP, bracing should be the last thing you should be doing, if you are serious about suspension work, start out with a good set of strut/springs/adjustable sleeves/full coils... etc.. whatever you want and then a good performance alignment, then fine tune with anti roll bars and bracing.
Yeah I'm planning on going with function form type 1s or Skunk 2 coilovers, but I don't really NEED to get them yet so I was just toying with the notion of getting some bracing stuff done.
stateofjustin
New Member
Why do you guys think aftermarket LCA's are just bling?
Unless you're buying chrome polished junk, the main point of replacing your LCA with an aftermarket part is to make the assembly lighter, and if it's really good (forged) stronger too. Stronger with strong bushings will handle more cornering forces before shifting alignment, and help protect things like shocks and struts from failure from excessive side loading.
The LCA is 'un-sprung weight'. Making anything south of the springs lighter will improve handling (traction and road feel in particular). Forged rims, lighter tires, hollow roll bars, cast and forged aluminum suspension components, brake rotors with aluminum hats, different calipers, titanium lug nuts... you can go as crazy as you like.
You could have the best shocks and springs ever, and if everything below them weighs a ton, your car will handle like crap.
Other benefits (depending on the part):
Can make lower ball joint replacement easier
Can make bushing changes easier
It may also afford you greater alignment adjustments, beneficial in extreme lowering or track tuning.
As to whether any of that is worth anything to you, only you would know. But regardless of if the car is a Cadillac or a Porsche 911, less un-sprung weight is always better.
Unless you're buying chrome polished junk, the main point of replacing your LCA with an aftermarket part is to make the assembly lighter, and if it's really good (forged) stronger too. Stronger with strong bushings will handle more cornering forces before shifting alignment, and help protect things like shocks and struts from failure from excessive side loading.
The LCA is 'un-sprung weight'. Making anything south of the springs lighter will improve handling (traction and road feel in particular). Forged rims, lighter tires, hollow roll bars, cast and forged aluminum suspension components, brake rotors with aluminum hats, different calipers, titanium lug nuts... you can go as crazy as you like.
You could have the best shocks and springs ever, and if everything below them weighs a ton, your car will handle like crap.
Other benefits (depending on the part):
Can make lower ball joint replacement easier
Can make bushing changes easier
It may also afford you greater alignment adjustments, beneficial in extreme lowering or track tuning.
As to whether any of that is worth anything to you, only you would know. But regardless of if the car is a Cadillac or a Porsche 911, less un-sprung weight is always better.
Yeah they're a couple pounds lighter is all, nothing major. I just heard stock LCAs are better than aftermarket, that's all. I didn't take into consideration hollow roll bars and aluminum hats.
I agree that is true that they do weight less but put one next to a oem one and weight it, is only by a 1-2 pounds lighter or only a bit more at most. depending on some their bushings are poly. or spherical which is better. but look at the majority of the people here who has them, they are people who drives their cars regularly and are nothing more then to make underneath the car look good, which is what most aftermarket off the shelves LCAs are made to do (and like you said, chrome polished junk). The only good ones are priced way higher (which are very few out there), or ones that are custom shop made which i highly doubt anyone here will pay for them, unless they are a track whore and want to shave off those tenths of seconds.
stateofjustin
New Member
Find this book somewhere:
http://books.google.com/books?id=cr4IyD5l1NQC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
Good stuff. Yeah, it's old with pictures of old cars, but our cars aren't anything special suspension wise so this covers it.
http://books.google.com/books?id=cr4IyD5l1NQC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
Good stuff. Yeah, it's old with pictures of old cars, but our cars aren't anything special suspension wise so this covers it.
stateofjustin
New Member
I totally get what you're saying, and you're absolutely right. For anyone who knows better, and is willing to put quality components on their car... big big things can happen. I know that isn't most people.
Quality stuff that makes your car perform better is the whole point of tuning though. If you want bling only, you aren't a tuner. You're some fool who thinks your flashy chrome is gonna net you some 'tang. And hell... you might be right.
In the end, it's what works for you. I certainly won't lose any sleep over WALKING on someone during a race.
2 pounds as hard as it sounds to believe, will produce a noticeable improvement in handling and braking.
Drag launching too.
That's just your first two pounds, or in this case x2 for 4 pounds of reduction. By the time you put everything under the spring on a diet (you could save more on the UCA, brakes, lugs), you would be amazed. Most of your gain is going to be from changing rims though. You may have bling rims, but they are probably heavy junk as far as performance is concerned. They also severely decrease the effectiveness of your brakes. And actually, depending on your brakes you can save a lot there too.
Girls might like it tho... "Check out that whip baby. That ($1400) Honda is mine, but I gots mad chrome upgrades and check out my JDM body kit."
I went from stock alloy rims on one of my cars, and went from 23 pounds to 17 pounds... -6 pounds x 4. 24 pounds of unsprung weight reduction, add the LCA at a conservative 1 pound, (and I'll bet the stock LCA is a LOT heavier than you think, there is way more than a 1 pound difference to be had on a quality replacement) and you have 28 pounds. The effect is cumulative, the more you lighten the better it gets. That's just changing two parts per wheel. I didn't stop there, I changed more... but there were quite a few more things that could have been swapped. The end effect: I can keep up with much faster cars because I can brake waaaaaaaay later and carry more speed in a corner. And that's on the street.
My folks (me too, sad since I don't have one) are in the FCA (Ferrari Club of America). That car I had built out was the only reason I could keep up on runs at all. Yeah, they weren't pushing it... but I had to just to keep up with that.
There is a reason why high end suspensions are virtually all forged aluminum and titanium.
But Ferrari makes junk right? Bugatti? Lamborghini and Porsche too... Girls HATE those cars. Panties drop for a Honda that scrapes going out of driveways and has flat black spray paint. And lots of chrome.
I say, go big or go home.
Quality stuff that makes your car perform better is the whole point of tuning though. If you want bling only, you aren't a tuner. You're some fool who thinks your flashy chrome is gonna net you some 'tang. And hell... you might be right.
In the end, it's what works for you. I certainly won't lose any sleep over WALKING on someone during a race.
2 pounds as hard as it sounds to believe, will produce a noticeable improvement in handling and braking.
Drag launching too.
That's just your first two pounds, or in this case x2 for 4 pounds of reduction. By the time you put everything under the spring on a diet (you could save more on the UCA, brakes, lugs), you would be amazed. Most of your gain is going to be from changing rims though. You may have bling rims, but they are probably heavy junk as far as performance is concerned. They also severely decrease the effectiveness of your brakes. And actually, depending on your brakes you can save a lot there too.
Girls might like it tho... "Check out that whip baby. That ($1400) Honda is mine, but I gots mad chrome upgrades and check out my JDM body kit."
I went from stock alloy rims on one of my cars, and went from 23 pounds to 17 pounds... -6 pounds x 4. 24 pounds of unsprung weight reduction, add the LCA at a conservative 1 pound, (and I'll bet the stock LCA is a LOT heavier than you think, there is way more than a 1 pound difference to be had on a quality replacement) and you have 28 pounds. The effect is cumulative, the more you lighten the better it gets. That's just changing two parts per wheel. I didn't stop there, I changed more... but there were quite a few more things that could have been swapped. The end effect: I can keep up with much faster cars because I can brake waaaaaaaay later and carry more speed in a corner. And that's on the street.
My folks (me too, sad since I don't have one) are in the FCA (Ferrari Club of America). That car I had built out was the only reason I could keep up on runs at all. Yeah, they weren't pushing it... but I had to just to keep up with that.
There is a reason why high end suspensions are virtually all forged aluminum and titanium.
But Ferrari makes junk right? Bugatti? Lamborghini and Porsche too... Girls HATE those cars. Panties drop for a Honda that scrapes going out of driveways and has flat black spray paint. And lots of chrome.
I say, go big or go home.
I've only put quality parts on my Civic since I got it (aside from the eBay grille and lip). Also no flat black paint or chrome on my car. I'm aware that the Civic wasn't designed by Honda to go fast stock, it was designed to kick ass in the MPG arena. And I never said I wanted these bling parts, I was only asking a simple question about said parts. Unlike your parents, I can't afford a Ferrari, or a Bugatti, Lambo, or Porsche. Hell even if I could afford one, I wouldn't buy one. I'll just stick with my 40 MPG CITY Civic and buy an STi if I want to go fast. You shouldn't make generalizations about people and what their car may or may not have on it based off cliches and stereotypes.I totally get what you're saying, and you're absolutely right. For anyone who knows better, and is willing to put quality components on their car... big big things can happen. I know that isn't most people.
Quality stuff that makes your car perform better is the whole point of tuning though. If you want bling only, you aren't a tuner. You're some fool who thinks your flashy chrome is gonna net you some 'tang. And hell... you might be right.
In the end, it's what works for you. I certainly won't lose any sleep over WALKING on someone during a race.
2 pounds as hard as it sounds to believe, will produce a noticeable improvement in handling and braking.
Drag launching too.
That's just your first two pounds, or in this case x2 for 4 pounds of reduction. By the time you put everything under the spring on a diet (you could save more on the UCA, brakes, lugs), you would be amazed. Most of your gain is going to be from changing rims though. You may have bling rims, but they are probably heavy junk as far as performance is concerned. They also severely decrease the effectiveness of your brakes. And actually, depending on your brakes you can save a lot there too.
Girls might like it tho... "Check out that whip baby. That ($1400) Honda is mine, but I gots mad chrome upgrades and check out my JDM body kit."
I went from stock alloy rims on one of my cars, and went from 23 pounds to 17 pounds... -6 pounds x 4. 24 pounds of unsprung weight reduction, add the LCA at a conservative 1 pound, (and I'll bet the stock LCA is a LOT heavier than you think, there is way more than a 1 pound difference to be had on a quality replacement) and you have 28 pounds. The effect is cumulative, the more you lighten the better it gets. That's just changing two parts per wheel. I didn't stop there, I changed more... but there were quite a few more things that could have been swapped. The end effect: I can keep up with much faster cars because I can brake waaaaaaaay later and carry more speed in a corner. And that's on the street.
My folks (me too, sad since I don't have one) are in the FCA (Ferrari Club of America). That car I had built out was the only reason I could keep up on runs at all. Yeah, they weren't pushing it... but I had to just to keep up with that.
There is a reason why high end suspensions are virtually all forged aluminum and titanium.
But Ferrari makes junk right? Bugatti? Lamborghini and Porsche too... Girls HATE those cars. Panties drop for a Honda that scrapes going out of driveways and has flat black spray paint. And lots of chrome.
I say, go big or go home.
stateofjustin
New Member
I said whatever works for you, works for you.
The rest is for comedy or information. Take a joke, eh? I get that not everyone who drives a Honda Civic is that way, I'd have to... since I own one too.
You yourself made a generalization when you started this thread. I didn't get butt hurt over it, I asked why you guys felt that way and gave some information on why I didn't completely agree.
Then ephatcher basically said, yeah most people just buy for the bling, so I ran with that too. Getting a little too serious I think.
I have never addressed you personally before this message modest, so you felt the need to separate yourself from that group for no reason. I didn't put you in the group to start with.
Best I've gotten out of my stock DX is 47.3 mpg (hypermiling techniques).
The rest is for comedy or information. Take a joke, eh? I get that not everyone who drives a Honda Civic is that way, I'd have to... since I own one too.
You yourself made a generalization when you started this thread. I didn't get butt hurt over it, I asked why you guys felt that way and gave some information on why I didn't completely agree.
Then ephatcher basically said, yeah most people just buy for the bling, so I ran with that too. Getting a little too serious I think.
I have never addressed you personally before this message modest, so you felt the need to separate yourself from that group for no reason. I didn't put you in the group to start with.
Best I've gotten out of my stock DX is 47.3 mpg (hypermiling techniques).
: Nah man I get that you're joking, I just don't agree with how you went about it.stateofjustin
New Member
Apologies are in order then, and so I apologize.
Most people I'm around are crass and dig on each other all the time, not to mention I worked for an auto dealer group for a long long time... that's the order of the day there. Keeps the wits sharp We aren't above taking them or even ripping on ourselves. The flat black paint thing was a self dig, my car has black paint, and with the EPA special stuff they had to use at the time... the clear coat peels off. So my car is mostly flat black.. mostly. It would look a hell of a lot better if I spray painted it black or sanded off the clear coat.
I've owned about 20 cars in the last 12 years... I liked all of them for one reason or another, I'm just a gear head. From a '07 Toyota Yaris, to a '93 Mercedes 600SL (Don't get me started on THAT car, I'm a wrench and I put myself in the poorhouse with that one), to a Buick LeSabre Wagon Hearse. It's like crack... I can't get enough.
Really the only mods I ever thought of making to my Civic were suspension. My engine has nearly 300K miles on it, and made mid ~80bhp new. It's not the slowest car I've ever owned but it's damn close. But I can't bring myself to give up the mileage, and the motor seems pretty solid still. The brakes are more than adequate for the car weight, but they'd look awful silly under some 17 or 18" rims.
The stock suspension has great starters other cars that size don't usually have... front upper A arms, independent rear suspension, relatively low center of gravity. Doesn't hurt to have the biggest aftermarket in the world either.
A car that handles is a sports car... power doesn't matter as much. When Fifth Gear reviewed the top 10 sports cars in production, the Mazda Miata placed #2 with less than 150hp. Why? Because it handles like it's bolted to rails.
For me, I either leave it stock, or replace it with the best parts I can get. Bling is for the other guys.
Most people I'm around are crass and dig on each other all the time, not to mention I worked for an auto dealer group for a long long time... that's the order of the day there. Keeps the wits sharp
We aren't above taking them or even ripping on ourselves. The flat black paint thing was a self dig, my car has black paint, and with the EPA special stuff they had to use at the time... the clear coat peels off. So my car is mostly flat black.. mostly. It would look a hell of a lot better if I spray painted it black or sanded off the clear coat.I've owned about 20 cars in the last 12 years... I liked all of them for one reason or another, I'm just a gear head. From a '07 Toyota Yaris, to a '93 Mercedes 600SL (Don't get me started on THAT car, I'm a wrench and I put myself in the poorhouse with that one), to a Buick LeSabre Wagon Hearse. It's like crack... I can't get enough.
Really the only mods I ever thought of making to my Civic were suspension. My engine has nearly 300K miles on it, and made mid ~80bhp new. It's not the slowest car I've ever owned but it's damn close. But I can't bring myself to give up the mileage, and the motor seems pretty solid still. The brakes are more than adequate for the car weight, but they'd look awful silly under some 17 or 18" rims.
The stock suspension has great starters other cars that size don't usually have... front upper A arms, independent rear suspension, relatively low center of gravity. Doesn't hurt to have the biggest aftermarket in the world either.
A car that handles is a sports car... power doesn't matter as much. When Fifth Gear reviewed the top 10 sports cars in production, the Mazda Miata placed #2 with less than 150hp. Why? Because it handles like it's bolted to rails.
For me, I either leave it stock, or replace it with the best parts I can get. Bling is for the other guys.
For the record, lcas >10 years old might need replacement. Bushings will wear, why not replace with the good stuff. Aftermarket lcas are lighter, often stronger, and look very nice. They're still bling IMO because most look much more fancy when compared to stock lcas. Some even look quite exotic... Cough..cough...F7...cough. On the other hand, I think of rear tie bars as being jewlery for a car.
Good point, definitely doesn't hurt to replace worn parts. I've read stuff on here about people running into problems when replacing the LCAs...since that would likely happen to me if I were to replace them, would I need to buy anything other than the LCAs? Like new bolts or somethin?
BTW, I'm about to go get my Cough Cough on as well.
